Ethanol Fuels

[diyer2]

You are not able to just let things lie Grumpy, you just proved it. Part of my point also.

It's all good.

[Grumpy Bear]

3 hours ago, diyer2 said:

You are not able to just let things lie Grumpy, you just proved it. Part of my point also.

It's all good.

 

A conversion isn't a conversation if it is one direction my Dear Sir.  It was to you I replied. You were talking about me, right? 

[Black02Silverado]

On 3/24/2023 at 9:57 AM, diyer2 said:

Why do you believe we have poor quality fuel.

For one if our fuel was a high quality, there wouldn't be a need for fuel system cleaners.  I'm sure people would still by it but then it would be trying to clean something that was already clean and so they would do it to make them selves feel better.

[Grumpy Bear]

1 hour ago, Black02Silverado said:

For one if our fuel was a high quality, there wouldn't be a need for fuel system cleaners.  I'm sure people would still by it but then it would be trying to clean something that was already clean and so they would do it to make them selves feel better.

 

The reason I'm doing ethanol is to reduce power cylinder deposits, injector deposits, AND ease the load on the oil. I've run a cleaner since my Chevron days. I do not know how much alcohol there needs to be to eliminate the fuel system deposits. Perhaps that is a question for you?  Boyz at AMSOIL should know, right?  

 

As an unexpected bonus pricing has been favorable for a few years now and I can take the milage hit and still produce a lower cost per mile than straight gasoline. 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Grumpy Bear
additional content

[Black02Silverado]

19 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

The reason I'm doing ethanol is to reduce power cylinder deposits, injector deposits, AND ease the load on the oil. I've run a cleaner since my Chevron days. I do not know how much alcohol there needs to be to eliminate the fuel system deposits. Perhaps that is a question for you?  Boyz at AMSOIL should know, right?  

 

As an unexpected bonus pricing has been favorable for a few years now and I can take the milage hit and still produce a lower cost per mile than straight gasoline. 

 

 

I don't know how much ethanol to reduce deposits other than to use as much as you can. I can only go up to a 50/50 mix before I get a CEL.  I'll take the mileage hit all the time to get better performance, cleaner burn and that great exhaust smell. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Black02Silverado

[KARNUT]

I find the topic of gas additives interesting. I had access to gas additives even Amsoil. Aside from the stabil I never used them. I never had a problem. I’ve only had injection cleaning once with no noticeable results. Even my classic vehicles over the years, just never thought it was needed. In the classic vehicles I did only use Texaco. Because I heard somewhere it was the best. Nothing scientific just my experience. Now in my diesels every tank. I had some bad fuel experience. Never with gas.

[Grumpy Bear]

48 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

I’ve only had injection cleaning once with no noticeable results.

 

Interesting turn of phrase. "Noticeable". I'd have to say my experience has been much like yours with a few exceptions. Mainly carburetor idle jets plugging when left sitting too long. Injectors engines I've never even had a confirmed leaker. This was TB, SPFI however. GDI engines which my experience is shallow, have had some carbon on the power cylinder side interfering with spray patterns. I didn't 'notice' it then either until I replaced them. I guess it's like watching a child grow up. See them every day and you don't notice the growth. Let the spend the summer with grandparents and boom! 

 

Where I do notice its usefulness is in spark mapping. Specifically, KR function and because I keep such a fine record of mileage, that as well. Almost a moot point with higher ethanol loading. Has enough octane to keep the ignition in it's place. 

 

Alcohol motors I've had apart have very little chamber carbon. No build up. A bit of soot sometimes. Like candle black but no buildup. 

[KARNUT]

40 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Interesting turn of phrase. "Noticeable". I'd have to say my experience has been much like yours with a few exceptions. Mainly carburetor idle jets plugging when left sitting too long. Injectors engines I've never even had a confirmed leaker. This was TB, SPFI however. GDI engines which my experience is shallow, have had some carbon on the power cylinder side interfering with spray patterns. I didn't 'notice' it then either until I replaced them. I guess it's like watching a child grow up. See them every day and you don't notice the growth. Let the spend the summer with grandparents and boom! 

 

Where I do notice its usefulness is in spark mapping. Specifically, KR function and because I keep such a fine record of mileage, that as well. Almost a moot point with higher ethanol loading. Has enough octane to keep the ignition in it's place. 

 

Alcohol motors I've had apart have very little chamber carbon. No build up. A bit of soot sometimes. Like candle black but no buildup. 

I did the injection cleaning in the wife’s Genesis. 80 percent of its use has been in town. An 18-20 mile loop daily. On Sunday we drive it to church and I fill it going home. It’s a 2011 with 128K miles. It runs like a top always has. Last year with new plugs I had them do the injection cleaning. Gas mileage the same. The only vehicle I had that long was my 92 Chevy truck. In 12 years I put 20K miles on it, 7K the first year. After one year it became a toy more than a commuter. My last dedicated hot rod. Just Texaco premium Gas. My wife’s car generally doesn’t get top tier, mostly Kroger gas. High volume station though. It’s highly possible the maximum performance level has dropped. I can’t remember the last time I put the pedal to the metal. A past common daily activity that began less after I bought the 92 Chevy. I never thought that would happen. 

[Grumpy Bear]

4 hours ago, Black02Silverado said:

I can only go up to a 50/50 mix before I get a CEL.

 

That's some good intel. Thanks for sharing.

 

Around here the E-85 sold is 75% s a 50/50 mix is about 41% ethanol.

 

Running with the CEL light...hummm.... I know some say it hurts nothing. I believe it COULD be an issue. Depending on how much 'headroom" there is in the injector/pump system and the duty cycle requirements under peak horsepower rpm. Ya know what happens when you go lean under power  

 

I know to run Dizzy on straight E85 requires a different higher volume pump. Some use larger injectors when the pump volume is good as is. But you can only run a PWM coil so hard before it overheats. Just say'n, there are considerations. 

 

Running with the CEL is telling you something is out of range and out of range is out of control.  Just be safe. 

[Black02Silverado]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

That's some good intel. Thanks for sharing.

 

Around here the E-85 sold is 75% s a 50/50 mix is about 41% ethanol.

 

Running with the CEL light...hummm.... I know some say it hurts nothing. I believe it COULD be an issue. Depending on how much 'headroom" there is in the injector/pump system and the duty cycle requirements under peak horsepower rpm. Ya know what happens when you go lean under power  

 

I know to run Dizzy on straight E85 requires a different higher volume pump. Some use larger injectors when the pump volume is good as is. But you can only run a PWM coil so hard before it overheats. Just say'n, there are considerations. 

 

Running with the CEL is telling you something is out of range and out of range is out of control.  Just be safe. 

Our 2016 Suburban wasn't a FF vehicle but I added the ethanol sensor and had Black Bear Performance tune for it.  Runs great and no CEL.  Only difference in it was there wasn't a sensor.  I know these new Silverado's from 2019 up are not set up for it.  I need to find someone that can get into the ECU and see if there is an ethanol table. Like the Suburban it had one, just that it wasn't turned on. 

 

I think the light is on because it is burning so much cleaner and so it thinks it is running lean.  I get the lean code for both banks.  So I just don't go higher on the ethanol content.

[Grumpy Bear]

11 minutes ago, Black02Silverado said:

Our 2016 Suburban wasn't a FF vehicle but I added the ethanol sensor and had Black Bear Performance tune for it.  Runs great and no CEL.  Only difference in it was there wasn't a sensor.  I know these new Silverado's from 2019 up are not set up for it.  I need to find someone that can get into the ECU and see if there is an ethanol table. Like the Suburban it had one, just that it wasn't turned on. 

 

I think the light is on because it is burning so much cleaner and so it thinks it is running lean.  I get the lean code for both banks.  So I just don't go higher on the ethanol content.

 

Yea, everyone is different. You will figure it out. It's in your wheelhouse. 

[OnTheReel]

Been trying to see if I should push any further than 18% in my rig. Long term fuel trim is pretty well set at +7% going down the highway. No ill effects or CEL but it sucks not knowing if you go too far until AFTER you have 33 gallons of it in the tank.

[Grumpy Bear]

1 hour ago, OnTheReel said:

Been trying to see if I should push any further than 18% in my rig. Long term fuel trim is pretty well set at +7% going down the highway. No ill effects or CEL but it sucks not knowing if you go too far until AFTER you have 33 gallons of it in the tank.

 

I'm on my second tank of 25% in Dizzy and holding also 7% LTFT down the road. The link that started this from the University of Nebraska indicated 30% can be done. As the SUV doesn't have a alcohol sensor and knowing the legal range of concentration variation I calculated 25% alcohol or 25% E85 to E-10 gasoline would never be more than that and yet over 20%. I'm locking in there. Funny they came out the same number. Right? 

[Grumpy Bear]

zEnjoy: 

 

Make sure you start this from the beginning to get the before and after bore scopes. Seems it wants to start near the end so back it up. 

 

 

On this one he seems puzzled by the SAE results and yet just noted earlier than the carbon build has a neutral point at about 10K miles. Something I read decades ago in an SAE paper on knock. Ergo as the SAE study starts with FRESH head and PISTONS it will build. 

 

 

[Slvrado]

Just want to add to this topic, i have a 2021 1500 with the 2.7L Ive run a heavy mix of E85 and got the CEL but the truck ran fine. I’m going to be switching to full tanks of e85 and see how it goes. Ill post data here too.