Ethanol Fuels

customboss · February 6, 2023

51 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

I thought 85 was acceptable because we have less oxygen.

Yes sir that was true in carburetor days. New DI and computer controlled naturally aspirated engines can adjust so well it’s almost like a turbo or super charger ramming that lack of partial

pressure back into engine intake.
The laws allowing low octane are literally from 1940’s.

Grumpy Bear · February 6, 2023

47 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

I thought 85 was acceptable because we have less oxygen.

Less barometric pressure actually. O2 has to do with AFR. 85 is fine at 5,000 feet IF 87 is at 500 feet of elevation. There' is a table for that. Problem is; the OEMs that still make SI-ICE's are using lots of boost AND high static compression ratios which are crutched by VVT/VVL systems to limit peak cylinder pressure. And sir they are running on the ragged edge. Enough so that they have become sensitive to even the amount of calcium in the oils add package. Also becomes an issue filling in Denver with 85 then running that tank to Dodge City. And they want to push it further so that the ragged edge becomes off the cliff.

diyer2 · February 7, 2023

I have used 85 octane for years in everything from vehicles to lawn mowers. Most owners manuals spec 87 octane. I have used 85,87,and 91 (the octanes available) in various motors, not worth the cost.

My carbureted Mercury outboard ran the same on all octanes, it was jetted for altitude.

Grumpy Bear · February 7, 2023

1 hour ago, diyer2 said:

I have used 85 octane for years in everything from vehicles to lawn mowers. Most owners manuals spec 87 octane. I have used 85,87,and 91 (the octanes available) in various motors, not worth the cost.

My carbureted Mercury outboard ran the same on all octanes, it was jetted for altitude.

If they don't need it, they don't need it.

OnTheReel · February 12, 2023

So what’s the actual truth on E85’s impact on engine oil? It’s commonly stated in the tuning communities that you should cut the interval in half on the corn. Possibly due to increased fuel dilution. Reason for dilution seems unclear, unless it’s only because you’re burning ~30% more E85 to match the same energy level of gasoline?

On the other hand, the study linked earlier in this thread seems to conclude fuel type bears no impact on oil. And others say E85 actually keeps the oil cleaner and would theoretically extend the interval…

Grumpy Bear · February 13, 2023

10 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

So what’s the actual truth on E85’s impact on engine oil? It’s commonly stated in the tuning communities that you should cut the interval in half on the corn.

Sample on right is on E-10 Regular and the one on the left is E-85.

Both 5K OCI. More than half the water for both oils is O2 bonds of Ester bases. The KF water test reads it as water but it isn't. Both are normal readings after that is taken to account.

Nothing on this report says change more often. Nor does it say run it longer. I ran both to a 50% Base reduction.

The slight reduction is some wear metals had more to do with the SAE grade. First test was 0W20 and the second test was 10W30.

customboss · February 13, 2023

12 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Sample on right is on E-10 Regular and the one on the left is E-85.

Both 5K OCI. More than half the water for both oils is O2 bonds of Ester bases. The KF water test reads it as water but it isn't. Both are normal readings after that is taken to account.

Nothing on this report says change more often. Nor does it say run it longer. I ran both to a 50% Base reduction.

The slight reduction is some wear metals had more to do with the SAE grade. First test was 0W20 and the second test was 10W30.

Combustion dynamic improved from test 1 to test 2 in this data. That means engine tune up level was improved in test 2 since you see 2 orders of magnitude LESS of nitration 0 % gasoline fuels dilution in the oil and we know that E85 can vary for actual gasoline/ethanol content. Bottom line get a IC engine to burn clean, get better wear control and less stress on the oil. Ethanol does burn cleaner in an engine that is optimized and burning clean. Good work Grumpy. Big oil has lied about anhydrous ethanol as a "top treat" additive that is low cost high octane and CLEAN BURN.

customboss · February 13, 2023

22 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

So what’s the actual truth on E85’s impact on engine oil? It’s commonly stated in the tuning communities that you should cut the interval in half on the corn. Possibly due to increased fuel dilution. Reason for dilution seems unclear, unless it’s only because you’re burning ~30% more E85 to match the same energy level of gasoline?

On the other hand, the study linked earlier in this thread seems to conclude fuel type bears no impact on oil. And others say E85 actually keeps the oil cleaner and would theoretically extend the interval…

Thats false in a well tuned engine. More ethanol = less stress on modern engines. Higher octane, natural solvency, cleans up the crap deposits remaining from current gasoline formulations. Ethanol will not heal a poorly tuned engine, fresh properly operating plugs, boots, coils, wires, 02 sensors, EGR system, PCV system, clean air filter well sealed, MAF/MAP working correctly. What ethanol does do is clean injectors to a degree. Polymer additives can clean what ethanol won't remove. Once you damage by deposits the tip of a DI injector it can be permanently damaged and never spray properly so getting that burn best you can will make up to a degree for that imperfection.

Grumpy Bear · February 14, 2023

21 hours ago, customboss said:

That means engine tune up level was improved in test 2 since you see 2 orders of magnitude LESS of nitration

Indexing Numbers FTIR are given as abs/cm2, an integration of the area under the curve between two wavelengths of the infrared spectrum not in powers of ten (orders of magnitude). A unit of area, not a base ten multiplier.

In point of fact, that number is neither qualitative nor quantitative. It cannot be converted directly to a quantity, such as ppm or percent. But could be indirectly and loosely inferred by knowing the entire area of the total sample over the entire spectral range OR by comparative sampling as is done when estimating fuel dilution by this method.

In such a comparison the reference oil would be run and compared to that same oil with known dilution references. Sample results from volume or weighted prepared samples. Under those conditions the absorption peak could be assigned a percentage. Even both those methods can be in error by as much as 10-25% according to some sources from species created during the oils life cycle that are NOT products of Nitration reactions.

That said these numbers power to see into the condition of the oil is 1.) In its statistical values such as trend to the mean, std deviation and 2.) Comparison of values to long term conditions such as perhaps deposits/corrosion, etc. in like architectures using similar strategies, conditions and products. You might be able to, with enough information make some assumptions that prove true more than not. That is, set boundaries. Boundaries by nature will differ from lab to lab as they are often compared to the subjective and not objective. What a person is willing to tolerate. Some people will walk to the edge of a cliff and some like to stay a mile off it. Boundaries are often set by $$$$ considerations such as ROI.

One thing I like about Blackstone is the unit references given. Typical values over X units for the type. What is being seen as normal for a LS1 isn't the same as what is seen for a Dodge Hemi. They have other flaws that are weightier but.....

customboss · February 14, 2023

7 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Indexing Numbers FTIR are given as abs/cm2, an integration of the area under the curve between two wavelengths of the infrared spectrum not in powers of ten (orders of magnitude). A unit of area, not a base ten multiplier.

In point of fact, that number is neither qualitative nor quantitative. It cannot be converted directly to a quantity, such as ppm or percent. But could be indirectly and loosely inferred by knowing the entire area of the total sample over the entire spectral range OR by comparative sampling as is done when estimating fuel dilution by this method.

In such a comparison the reference oil would be run and compared to that same oil with known dilution references. Sample results from volume or weighted prepared samples. Under those conditions the absorption peak could be assigned a percentage. Even both those methods can be in error by as much as 10-25% according to some sources from species created during the oils life cycle that are NOT products of Nitration reactions.

That said these numbers power to see into the condition of the oil is 1.) In its statistical values such as trend to the mean, std deviation and 2.) Comparison of values to long term conditions such as perhaps deposits/corrosion, etc. in like architectures using similar strategies, conditions and products. You might be able to, with enough information make some assumptions that prove true more than not. That is, set boundaries. Boundaries by nature will differ from lab to lab as they are often compared to the subjective and not objective. What a person is willing to tolerate. Some people will walk to the edge of a cliff and some like to stay a mile off it. Boundaries are often set by $$$$ considerations such as ROI.

One thing I like about Blackstone is the unit references given. Typical values over X units for the type. What is being seen as normal for a LS1 isn't the same as what is seen for a Dodge Hemi. They have other flaws that are weightier but.....

There are proprietary methods of FTIR and near infrared that are not published as standards. When looking at nitration in general it can be contributed by many differing components but when looking at nitrous oxides its very accurate. JOAP does a better job standardizing ASTM level FTIR.

Looking at nitration from other sources including CLEAN oil and thinking that area via ABS is subtractable from fired IC engine oil analysis result and be accurate is an incorrect but common assumption.

As I have shared before we can use FTIR for unknown constituent analysis and there are vast data bases for that. Once you fire a IC engine that game is over. ASTM and others have yet to fully standardize the nitration realm. One reason I had a unique business!

Blackstone indeed has no real combustion dynamic reading capability and is blind to IR readings which are a must for accurate oil analysis. Centrifuged solids testing is good but not accurate enough to what insolubles we see. Blackstone analysis is a bad example unless one wants to just feel good about taking a sample.

Grumpy Bear · February 19, 2023

On 2/14/2023 at 9:33 AM, customboss said:

Looking at nitration from other sources including CLEAN oil and thinking that area via ABS is subtractable from fired IC engine oil analysis result and be accurate is an incorrect but common assumption.

I wasn't questioning accuracy. I questioned the math.

On 2/14/2023 at 9:14 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

Indexing Numbers FTIR are given as abs/cm2, an integration of the area under the curve between two wavelengths of the infrared spectrum not in powers of ten (orders of magnitude). A unit of area, not a base ten multiplier.

I questioned the math not the methodology. But as I am now forced to look.....

https://www.perkinelmer.co.pj/Portals/0/resource/products/ft/pdf/The_JOAP_Method_for_OIL_Condition.pdf

Okay now I have an idea of method.

[quote]

The JOAP method differs from the reference method in that it provides absolute values for components of the oil. [that means without reference to the new oil] The method involves the subtraction of an empty cell background from the used oil spectrum. Characteristic regions from the resulting spectrum are used to determine used oil parameters and components (Table 1). [end quote and bold insert mine].

JOAP (Joint Oil Analysis Program) [Military protocol] method has nothing to do with accuracy or "type" of nitration compounds. No magic going on here. This is straight up error control. A method to eliminate errors in interpreting samples by elimination of the 'possible source' of error. That is knowing the base oil reference. Example given in the link is oil additions during the oils life effectively canceling the VOA values. Has nothing to do with Voo Doo happening "once the engine is fired". AND it's still an integration of the area under the curve. If fact that pdf the problems are in collecting and categorizing not is the result of the FTIR. Same number either method.

ASTM E2412 INDEX Number Reported is also without reference to the new oil. Subtractive analysis is the comparison of the two reports and not the report or method used itself. Both methods ASTM and JOAP read the same spectrum, Nitration, and against the same scale. A/cm.

If there is anything that seems magical going on it is in the point of condemnation. The lower that number the cleaner the oil the longer the equipment last. Few gasoline or diesel motors ever die of Nitration. Natural gas motors are where this is an issue. You like 10 absolute. Some labs are 10 over the background and a few at absolute 20 A/cm. The bigger the number the longer they claim an oil 'okay'.

When enough mud gets on a floor so that I can no longer see the floor. I give it a clean sweep. I'll keep my ASTM E2412 and note my baseline comparisons.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

customboss · February 20, 2023

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

I wasn't questioning accuracy. I questioned the math.

I questioned the math not the methodology. But as I am now forced to look.....

https://www.perkinelmer.co.pj/Portals/0/resource/products/ft/pdf/The_JOAP_Method_for_OIL_Condition.pdf

Okay now I have an idea of method.

[quote]

The JOAP method differs from the reference method in that it provides absolute values for components of the oil. [that means without reference to the new oil] The method involves the subtraction of an empty cell background from the used oil spectrum. Characteristic regions from the resulting spectrum are used to determine used oil parameters and components (Table 1). [end quote and bold insert mine].

JOAP (Joint Oil Analysis Program) [Military protocol] method has nothing to do with accuracy or "type" of nitration compounds. No magic going on here. This is straight up error control. A method to eliminate errors in interpreting samples by elimination of the 'possible source' of error. That is knowing the base oil reference. Example given in the link is oil additions during the oils life effectively canceling the VOA values. Has nothing to do with Voo Doo happening "once the engine is fired". AND it's still an integration of the area under the curve. If fact that pdf the problems are in collecting and categorizing not is the result of the FTIR. Same number either method.

ASTM E2412 INDEX Number Reported is also without reference to the new oil. Subtractive analysis is the comparison of the two reports and not the report or method used itself. Both methods ASTM and JOAP read the same spectrum, Nitration, and against the same scale. A/cm.

If there is anything that seems magical going on it is in the point of condemnation. The lower that number the cleaner the oil the longer the equipment last. Few gasoline or diesel motors ever die of Nitration. Natural gas motors are where this is an issue. You like 10 absolute. Some labs are 10 over the background and a few at absolute 20 A/cm. The bigger the number the longer they claim an oil 'okay'.

When enough mud gets on a floor so that I can no longer see the floor. I give it a clean sweep. I'll keep my ASTM E2412 and note my baseline comparisons.

Good Luck!

Grumpy Bear · March 22, 2023

Nebraska study finds E30 fuel OK for non-flex-fuel vehicles | AP News

E30-Demonstration-FINAL.pdf (nebraska.gov)

swathdiver · March 22, 2023

3 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Nebraska study finds E30 fuel OK for non-flex-fuel vehicles | AP News

E30-Demonstration-FINAL.pdf (nebraska.gov)

It's a start since only 3 types of cars were used. Half the time when I pumped E30 I got 87 because the blending pumps were turned off after hours! Wonder if they checked for that too?