Oil additives

[thx1138v2]

I have always used Slick50 in my trucks but I've noticed that the owner's manual for the 2007 4.3L I just bought says not to use any oil additives. I'm just curious why it says that? I assume it's something to do with the synthetic motor oil.

[Jworks]

I think all owners manuals say that.  I had a 94 GMC 4.3 I bought used in '96, 55k miles.  I used Castrol 20w40 and a can of STP forever it seemed.  Later went to 20w50 and STP.  Some will say it sounds crazy but I swore by the STP.  Finally sold it with 484k miles.  yes, someone bought it.  Now, with the newer engines I just don't know if thats a good thing or not, so I haven't done it on my 2011 5.3.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Jworks

[Black02Silverado]

Manufactures don't recommend it's my understanding that it would open up all kinds of warranty claims if for some reason something happened. 

 

But now, lubricant technology has come a long way and the use of additives in the oil are not needed. 

 

[Jworks]

"Manufactures don't recommend it's my understanding that it would open up all kinds of warranty claims if for some reason something happened".

 

Yes, that makes sense.

[Grumpy Bear]

To be or not to be?

 

A blanket statement is the definition of a Universal Truth. Or to say otherwise, Without exception. Is it really? I hate blanket statements. Stops people from THINKING. 

 

ACDelco part #992869 is called E.O.S. ENGINE OIL SUPPLIMENT. Granted it is for break-in of new motors but even GM has an exception.

 

AMSOIL has a "Break in Oil" skipping the additive part. Red Line too has a break in supplement. Lucas and Gibbs as well. 

Special purpose additives or special oils. 

 

Do you use assembly lube? Oil additive. 

 

Some additives do what you think you not doing. Increase viscosity. Lucas Oil Stabilizer and STP. Some cut viscosity, Wynns. Some, like above add antiwear and some add friction modifiers. Slick50 is one such. Some are dangerous like those that chlorinate the oil. Z-Max anyone? Most high mileage oils contain either AN or some Ester of even both to clean and condition seals. Some like HPL SAE30/40 EC are excellent and safe cleaners as was Valvoline CUMMINS RESTORE. 

 

Some last an OCI and some are gone in minutes along with your money. 

 

When an OEM says, No Additives and yet sells them the message is NO ADDITIVES YOU DON'T BUY FROM US. 

Oil suppliers that say such and yet sell 'special oils' also mean NOT BOUGHT FROM US. 

 

As sinister as that sounds this is also true.... There's a special formulation and then there is 'witches brew'. If you can't tell the difference....DON'T!! 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[64BAwagon]

I was told by a Mobil engineer (back when they made calls with sales people) around 2000 that if there were any additives that made a general improvement to the oil that they would be selling oil with it already there. For most applications the regular consumer oil in the proper grade and spec was sufficient. 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by 64BAwagon

[Grumpy Bear]

3 hours ago, 64BAwagon said:

I was told by a Mobil engineer (back when they made calls with sales people) around 2000 that if there were any additives that made a general improvement to the oil that they would be selling oil with it already there. For most applications the regular consumer oil in the proper grade and spec was sufficient. 

 

 

 

Let's see.  Some use moly, some boron and others titanium. Some use star polymers VII and some don't. Some use none. Everyone uses variations of multiple base oils and basic add packs are all over the map. Read a few VOA's.  If this Mobil guy was remotely close to accurate, wouldn't every oil be exactly the same? Motor don't know what name is on the valve cover. 

 

I'll answer that. YES! If ten companies all were heading toward the best and universal law being what it is, then in the end all of them would come to the exact same conclusion. Is that true? 

 

I'll answer that. Absolutely not. Question isn't who's lying. Question is, "Who's lie hurts the least"?

 

Question. What in the world is "Regular Consumer Oil"?  

 

I'll answer that. It's a political answer to a physics question. That's when allot of words are used to answer a question that those words absolutely do not answer. 

 

Is there is 'What's best". Could be NO ONE is making it. Could be someone is. If so, then every other one with a dog in that fight is slinging crap about how it isn't and how there's is. 

 

I've caught enough CLE's in flat out lies they should be embarrassed. Of course, they are not. There is no interest in "what is best". Who would be? Give a true expert free reign to design the perfect lubricant and what he came up with would be illegal, immoral or fattening.  OEM wants you to send him money every month for LIFE. Not teach you how to make it last multiples of your most basic expectations. 

 

His answer was so narrow as to be useless. Heads are not hat racks.  Reason is reasonable. 

 

 

 

 

[64BAwagon]

He was commenting on additives like Slick 50 and such. Not the array of additives that make up oil. We werent trying to keep a space shuttle running, just a bunch of trucks that previously had no established baseline for oil change intervals.

As far as regular consumer oil goes. I was referring to commercial off the shelf oil commonly found in auto parts stores and retailers (IE not Gibbs or other specially formulated oils) 

I understood his point and I always felt it was good advice. 

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, 64BAwagon said:

He was commenting on additives like Slick 50 and such. Not the array of additives that make up oil. We werent trying to keep a space shuttle running, just a bunch of trucks that previously had no established baseline for oil change intervals.

As far as regular consumer oil goes. I was referring to commercial off the shelf oil commonly found in auto parts stores and retailers (IE not Gibbs or other specially formulated oils) 

I understood his point and I always felt it was good advice. 

 

Grown up discorse. Love it  

 

I think you're old enough. Remember ARCO Graphite 5W30? How long did that consumer product last? Teflon has been tried in Consumer Oils. For a short while chlorinated solvents. All worked. Just not for very long. Minutes sometimes. Some caused damage. Mobil's argument is that 'whatever' is in the can is 'good enough'. If it were not, we'd do differently. My point is, that is not the truth. GM took Whale oil out of ATF years ago and made this same statement. "We've got this, and the new stuff is just as good". It wasn't and warranty claims went off the hook. 

 

Most of this additive stuff are products that failed in Consumer Oils. But some of it is not. HPL EC in example. ACDelco E.O.E for another. Some like AMSOIL like to create a new product. Break in oil, and others just give you the add package to add to the existing line of products. ACDelco, Red Line. 

 

Look on the back of a bottle of Mobil 1 Extended Performance High Mileage SAE 5W-30. 

 

Mobil 1 Extended Performance High Mileage SAE 5W-30 Advanced Full Synthetic Motor Oil | The Petroleum Quality Institute of America (pqia.org)

 

Says right on the label "Cleans up virtually all engine sludge in just one oil change". So, three questions for ya......

 

1.) Why would they make this product if the "Consumer Product" was Good Enough?

2.) Why is this product not DEXOS1Gen2/Gen3 approved? 

3.) Why 75,000 miles AFTER the warranty in most cases and if extended, warranty would its use violate that? 

 

The only spec this oil could not meet for DEXOS1Gen3 would be the MINIMUM deposit specification. Too clean. 

 

 

 

[Jworks]

So, GrumpyBear what do you recommend or better, what do you use in your truck?  I've stated above what service I got out of Castrol oil and STP.  484K miles.  But that was on a '94, 4.3 engine.  Now I have a 2011, 5.3, 155k miles.  With this truck I've been getting oil changed at the dealer with 5w30 Dexos and no additive.  I'm "thinking" about changing oil myself and going with Mobil 1.  But I'd like to hear what you do.

[Grumpy Bear]

19 hours ago, Jworks said:

So, GrumpyBear what do you recommend or better, what do you use in your truck?  I've stated above what service I got out of Castrol oil and STP.  484K miles.  But that was on a '94, 4.3 engine.  Now I have a 2011, 5.3, 155k miles.  With this truck I've been getting oil changed at the dealer with 5w30 Dexos and no additive.  I'm "thinking" about changing oil myself and going with Mobil 1.  But I'd like to hear what you do.

 

@Jworks

What I use:

 

For some time, I used Red Line HP 5W30 or 10W30 summer and Red Line HP 0W30 winter. 5W30 would be fine year around anyplace south of the Yukon. LOL I was experimenting with fuel economy and occasionally my source would be out of one and I'd use what he had on hand of these three. Same filters and OCI's as below. 

  

Now, Red Line HP Euro 5W30 with 1-quart High Performance Lubricants SAE40 EC and a Purolator PL22500 or FRAM XG10575 at 5K intervals. I made this change when I started using E85 on a regular basis.

 

Anything Red Line HP or Red Line HP Euro above but, as prices and availability continue to be a challenge, I have added High Performance Lubricants top few lines to the mix. No-VII, Premium Plus, Euro come to mind. 

 

What I MIGHT recommend: 

 

Mobil 1 Extended Performance High Mileage SAE 5W-30 Advanced Full Synthetic Motor Oil

Kind of a throwback to when they made Tri-Synthetic. Has some actual solvency and great VIS numbers. 

 

Ones I would try in my own stuff: 

 

Renewable Lubricants Inc. RLI 5W30

 

EvoSyn 5W30 from Evolve Lubricant's Inc.

 

BioSynthetic 5W30 there are others in this category like Havoline PRO RS but this one, BioSynthetic, I know is at least 1/3 Bio based thus has some good solvency. I've actually used this one and I had a favorable experience. 

 

Nothing on this list above is DEXOS licensed. If that is a non-starter, then continue to read below. Use it even if you choose from the list above. 

 

Note 1: I personally, would not run a *W20 in any modern V8 no matter what the OEM advised that did not have a HTHS over 3.0 cp.

 

Note 2:  Microsoft Word - evolvelubricants_porsche_enginecongresspaper_2022.docx (evolvelube.com)

Go to page 10 of the PDF and read it until you understand it to decide OCI for ANY oil. 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[Jworks]

18 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

@Jworks

What I use:

 

For some time, I used Red Line HP 5W30 or 10W30 summer and Red Line HP 0W30 winter. 5W30 would be fine year around anyplace south of the Yukon. LOL I was experimenting with fuel economy and occasionally my source would be out of one and I'd use what he had on hand of these three. Same filters and OCI's as below. 

  

Now, Red Line HP Euro 5W30 with 1-quart High Performance Lubricants SAE40 EC and a Purolator PL22500 or FRAM XG10575 at 5K intervals. I made this change when I started using E85 on a regular basis.

 

Anything Red Line HP or Red Line HP Euro above but, as prices and availability continue to be a challenge, I have added High Performance Lubricants top few lines to the mix. No-VII, Premium Plus, Euro come to mind. 

 

What I MIGHT recommend: 

 

Mobil 1 Extended Performance High Mileage SAE 5W-30 Advanced Full Synthetic Motor Oil

Kind of a throwback to when they made Tri-Synthetic. Has some actual solvency and great VIS numbers. 

 

Ones I would try in my own stuff: 

 

Renewable Lubricants Inc. RLI 5W30

 

EvoSyn 5W30 from Evolve Lubricant's Inc.

 

BioSynthetic 5W30 there are others in this category like Havoline PRO RS but this one, BioSynthetic, I know is at least 1/3 Bio based thus has some good solvency. I've actually used this one and I had a favorable experience. 

 

Nothing on this list above is DEXOS licensed. If that is a non-starter, then continue to read below. Use it even if you choose from the list above. 

 

Note 1: I personally, would not run a *W20 in any modern V8 no matter what the OEM advised that did not have a HTHS over 3.0 cp.

 

Note 2:  Microsoft Word - evolvelubricants_porsche_enginecongresspaper_2022.docx (evolvelube.com)

Go to page 10 of the PDF and read it until you understand it to decide OCI for ANY oil. 

 

Thanks. So you think its not advisable, or not necessary, to use additives (like STP, Slick50, Lucas, etc) in modern engines.

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

On 8/22/2023 at 3:01 PM, Jworks said:

I think all owners manuals say that.  I had a 94 GMC 4.3 I bought used in '96, 55k miles.  I used Castrol 20w40 and a can of STP forever it seemed.  Later went to 20w50 and STP.  Some will say it sounds crazy but I swore by the STP.  Finally sold it with 484k miles.  yes, someone bought it.  Now, with the newer engines I just don't know if thats a good thing or not, so I haven't done it on my 2011 5.3.

 

@Jworks

These choices you made pushed wear rates out past the far right of the lower of these two graphs.

 

And these two graphs point out the difference between the OEM/EPA goals for your motor [upper] and your goals for your motor [lower]. I'm on that bus with you. 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[swathdiver]

20 hours ago, Jworks said:

So, GrumpyBear what do you recommend or better, what do you use in your truck?  I've stated above what service I got out of Castrol oil and STP.  484K miles.  But that was on a '94, 4.3 engine.  Now I have a 2011, 5.3, 155k miles.  With this truck I've been getting oil changed at the dealer with 5w30 Dexos and no additive.  I'm "thinking" about changing oil myself and going with Mobil 1.  But I'd like to hear what you do.

Mobil One stinks compared to ACDelco's oil.  It's much thinner and when it was in my motors, they rattled like a box of marbles on start up.  They don't do it anymore.

 

My buddy, Lee Fredericks, validated Slick50 for use in Broward Sheriff's Office cruisers back in the 1980s.

 

Back then we ran M1 in our muscle cars because it was a Group IV based oil.  That changed around 2010 and it is no longer king of the hill, if it ever was!

[Grumpy Bear]

3 minutes ago, Jworks said:

Thanks. So you think its not advisable, or not necessary, to use additives (like STP, Slick50, Lucas, etc) in modern engines.

 

@Jworks

 

I think that if you choose an oil with enough HTHS viscosity and change it often enough to prevent deposits you will get great life and service from you powertrain. With self-oils, even with enough viscosity, OCI lengths will be SHORT. Much shorter than the OEM OLM recommendations. 2 to 3K miles at best. Dilution of the varnish precursors is the only tool you have with a non-polar oil. 

 

Except for the Mobil 1 product on my first list, they, shelf oils, haven't any, or very little solvency and as such cannot prevent gasoline varnish from impacting ring integrity. THAT is important when gasoline is the fuel. Those oils I listed have solvency, enough to hold at bay for some and even clean for others.

 

That said what you used were products the increased viscosity in an already vicious oil. 

 

I'm not sure modern vs old school has much to do with the additive discussion.