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Some Assembly is Required

Grumpy Bear
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OnTheReel
OnTheReel

It’s from Facebook so probably a big “if”…but “if” this guy is telling the truth about the oil change interval, that leaves the quality of the oil used, and the viscosity of said oil as two big questi

Grumpy Bear
Grumpy Bear

Yes 300K is the goal. Will I make it?  276K isn't that far off so yea, I already did.  That would make 3 units you know of and yea, that would make me somewhat of an expert on this piece of junk. Stil

newdude
newdude

The 2.5 is pretty good except for it's Achillies heel (same on the 1.4T, 1.5T and 2.0T).  The camshaft driven vacuum pump.  If the pump fails seen them jump time or break the end of the cam they are o

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Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

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Posted (edited)

How much Assembly is Required?

 

So I finally got a fluid temp gauge installed on the CVT in Raven. Some others in the Mirage Forum I'm in have had them for awhile using a different application and device. I've spent enough on that sort of thing. OMG do these things run hot!!

 

So the CEL gets tossed at about 258 F and goes into limp mode at 265 F. That's factory. Factory is also a Group II/III blend fluid and 87 C thermostat and not real fluid cooler. More of a fluid heater, attemperator.

 

Some of these guys, living southern US are running 80+ and towing with a vehicle that has zero towing capacity. Even have a member who went into limp mode on the drive home breaking her in at 85 mph. Lord help that poor car. Seems Joe Average who monitors this parameter is steady over 225 F even in Canada. One member has installed a trans cooler and with a more moderate set of habits his his under 200 F...just. Others in the South West US shudder to look. 230 to 250 F desert crossings. 

 

And we have a power train engineer that has worked for three major Asian auto makers telling us they are set up to die by 150 K. No cooler, mineral oil, no direction or guidance. Not dash monitoring other than an OH CRAP CEL.  Long drain intervals. Internal fluid decay monitoring to deny warranty claims. Resettable only by the factory tool. Stupid expensive maintenance cost. 

 

I'm not listing all I've done to work this out but in my day to day I'm under 185 F and haven't installed a cooler yet. But it's coming. I'll get it under 175 F on my worst day before I'm done. And I'll get what I always get. A long trouble free service life with few limitations. 

 

 

image.thumb.jpeg.b032ebee48783be48df5395706206454.jpeg

 

Fluid life and a factory OCI of 30K with temps routinely over 225F

:idiot:

 

Russian Roulette anyone?

 

😏

  

image.png.e6cebc13367bb011e741173258013d42.png

 

Parts is parts. CVT or conventional, all have converters, clutches, valve bodies and seals and the fluid has no idea what machine it is in.

 

transmission-fluid-life-.thumb.png.794ac83317a1d9195ed0011c651b32ff.png

 

 

 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
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customboss Senior Enthusiast

customboss

Posted
Posted
54 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

How much Assembly is Required?

 

So I finally got a fluid temp gauge installed on the CVT in Raven. Some others in the Mirage Forum I'm in have had them for awhile using a different application and device. I've spent enough on that sort of thing. OMG do these things run hot!!

 

So the CEL gets tossed at about 258 F and goes into limp mode at 265 F. That's factory. Factory is also a Group II/III blend fluid and 87 C thermostat and not real fluid cooler. More of a fluid heater, attemperator.

 

Some of these guys, living southern US are running 80+ and towing with a vehicle that has zero towing capacity. Even have a member who went into limp mode on the drive home breaking her in at 85 mph. Lord help that poor car. Seems Joe Average who monitors this parameter is steady over 225 F even in Canada. One member has installed a trans cooler and with a more moderate set of habits his his under 200 F...just. Others in the South West US shudder to look. 230 to 250 F desert crossings. 

 

And we have a power train engineer that has worked for three major Asian auto makers telling us they are set up to die by 150 K. No cooler, mineral oil, no direction or guidance. Not dash monitoring other than an OH CRAP CEL.  Long drain intervals. Internal fluid decay monitoring to deny warranty claims. Resettable only by the factory tool. Stupid expensive maintenance cost. 

 

I'm not listing all I've done to work this out but in my day to day I'm under 185 F and haven't installed a cooler yet. But it's coming. I'll get it under 175 F on my worst day before I'm done. And I'll get what I always get. A long trouble free service life with few limitations. 

 

 

image.thumb.jpeg.b032ebee48783be48df5395706206454.jpeg

 

Fluid life and a factory OCI of 30K with temps routinely over 225F

:idiot:

 

Russian Roulette anyone?

 

😏

  

image.png.e6cebc13367bb011e741173258013d42.png

 

Parts is parts. CVT or conventional, all have converters, clutches, valve bodies and seals and the fluid has no idea what machine it is in.

 

transmission-fluid-life-.thumb.png.794ac83317a1d9195ed0011c651b32ff.png

 

 

 

The Redline CVT will save you. 

Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

Posted
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Posted (edited)

Rapid Disassembly Possible. 

 

You want to run 1 cP oil? Have at. You want to run 350 F? Be my guest. Do you believe in 'forever fills". Wow, glad I'm not you or your powertrain. You want to make irrational arguments about make believe worlds of lubrication regimes? Enjoy the show. I like fireworks.  

 

BMW 10W60 for the E46, M3 and E60. Ford Mustang 5W50. Camaro ZL1. 5W40. Porsche? 5W40/5W50 in the fast sporting stuff. Now what do these bonehead engineers know your run of the mill CLE doesn't?  Evidently allot. Like lubricating an engine on 1 to 3 micron of oil journal film is DUMB. 

 

I will trade fuel economy for engine life all day every day and twice on days ending in Y. But hey, that's me. 

 

Again....Hersey. Speed, Load and Viscosity and viscosity is ruled by...TEMPERATURE. You don't have to run fast to run hot. You need a engineer to call out a 207 to 220 F water thermostat, 197 F TBV and no oil/fluid coolers. Just heaters. 

 

GM has been backpedaling since 2015 on viscosity and cooling. 😏 Ops. Stepped over the line.....

 

OR keep up with the current trend of self destruction.  Rapid disassemble is certainly possible. They like your money. 

 

image.jpeg.13c03883c6c3ce9fdaed45e17416d61b.jpeg

 

 

 

 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
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customboss Senior Enthusiast

customboss

Posted
Posted (edited)

First test of VEEPEAK plug in scanner and 

ACTIVE OBD for Subaru. 2025 Sube Wilderness Crosstrek AWD. 
IMG_0160.thumb.png.f8c575a50a1c189040fade3cbb3fedd3.png

Edited by customboss
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Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

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Assemble This! 

 

https://www.jatco.co.jp/english_rele...1031_1557.html

 

Read it carefully then ask: 

 

1.) How does this friction additive reverse temperature initiated oxidation of the BASE OIL? (It is unavoidable)  

2.) How does a friction additive remove the sub 20 micron wear debris the filters can not? (Debris are unavoidable)

 

From one of the leading suppliers to the auto industry, Jatco!...OMG, what rubbish.  

 

What is the solution to the above two points? Replace the fluid to 1.) Replace damaged fluid and 2.) Dilute or flush debris. 

 

This "new" chemistry does not deny oxidation and contamination....it simply IGNORES it , like it will go away if they promote something disconnected hard enough with a pubic/environmental/governmental need severe enough. Distraction. To what end? $$$$$$$$$$$$ is that enough $$. And one thinks I don't understand business. I understand liars and don't like them. 

 

How's that trust thing for factory engineers holding up? What CLE signed off on that swill? 😏 Was one even involved? 

 

 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

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Posted

Assemble from Scratch

 

Sample #1 is a VOA from a batch represented in this entire table and run in a new motor at 3,750 mile intervals.

 

image.thumb.png.1ab0b54c94a1f851bc632a320d1cb9cf.png

image.thumb.png.f58a6ff51d087cbe2f50f1bc9186f4d8.png

image.thumb.png.8d08188cd9a2e2dd92a6a0b02bb008ab.png

 

Sample #1 says we have an oil with a background Nitration of 8 abs / 0.1 mm. According to one CLE 10 abs / 0.1 mm is a hard limit and something is in need of immediate attention if it breaches this value. What does the STLE have to say?:  

 

 Tribology and Lubrication Technology, which is the official journal of the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers (STLE).

 

[Quote] Oxidation & Nitration. Oxidation is the gradual degradation of oil, particularly the base stock, that takes place in the presence of oxygen and heat. Excessive oxidation will increase viscosity and can lead to deposits in the form of sludge and varnish. Likewise nitration occurs when nitrogen in the air combines with the base stock to form acids, sludge, and insolubles, all of which degrade the oil. Oxidation and nitration are usually reported together in uoa’s by a unit of measure called abs (absorption per centimeter). It’s important to understand that even virgin oil will show a measure of oxidation & nitration because the test equipment “sees” some of the chemical components of the base stock as if they represent oxidation & nitration. This is particularly true of oils that have some kinds of vegetable esters in the base stock. Thus to correctly interpret a uoa, you need to know the oxidation & nitration numbers showing in the virgin oil. Most labs use 50 abs as the cl for synthetics, above the virgin baseline, and 30 abs for mineral oil. [Close Quote)

 

But according to one CLE this motor would be in need of a complete tune up every other oil change. 

 

I find the condemnation limit of Oil Analyzers to be quite conservative. (17 abs / 0.1 mm)

"Most labs" 50 unit condemnation limits (ester synthetic) are based on not knowing the virgin values. I know mine. If I didn't the oil is condemned in the bottle on oxidation. 

 

 

 


 

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customboss Senior Enthusiast

customboss

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Assemble from Scratch

 

Sample #1 is a VOA from a batch represented in this entire table and run in a new motor at 3,750 mile intervals.

 

image.thumb.png.1ab0b54c94a1f851bc632a320d1cb9cf.png

image.thumb.png.f58a6ff51d087cbe2f50f1bc9186f4d8.png

image.thumb.png.8d08188cd9a2e2dd92a6a0b02bb008ab.png

 

Sample #1 says we have an oil with a background Nitration of 8 abs / 0.1 mm. According to one CLE 10 abs / 0.1 mm is a hard limit and something is in need of immediate attention if it breaches this value. What does the STLE have to say?:  

 

 Tribology and Lubrication Technology, which is the official journal of the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers (STLE).

 

[Quote] Oxidation & Nitration. Oxidation is the gradual degradation of oil, particularly the base stock, that takes place in the presence of oxygen and heat. Excessive oxidation will increase viscosity and can lead to deposits in the form of sludge and varnish. Likewise nitration occurs when nitrogen in the air combines with the base stock to form acids, sludge, and insolubles, all of which degrade the oil. Oxidation and nitration are usually reported together in uoa’s by a unit of measure called abs (absorption per centimeter). It’s important to understand that even virgin oil will show a measure of oxidation & nitration because the test equipment “sees” some of the chemical components of the base stock as if they represent oxidation & nitration. This is particularly true of oils that have some kinds of vegetable esters in the base stock. Thus to correctly interpret a uoa, you need to know the oxidation & nitration numbers showing in the virgin oil. Most labs use 50 abs as the cl for synthetics, above the virgin baseline, and 30 abs for mineral oil. [Close Quote)

 

But according to one CLE this motor would be in need of a complete tune up every other oil change. 

 

I find the condemnation limit of Oil Analyzers to be quite conservative. (17 abs / 0.1 mm)

"Most labs" 50 unit condemnation limits (ester synthetic) are based on not knowing the virgin values. I know mine. If I didn't the oil is condemned in the bottle on oxidation. 

 

 

 


 

"According to one CLE 10 abs / 0.1 mm is a hard limit and something is in need of immediate attention if it breaches this value."  

 

Your references are not appropriate for used engine oil. 

 

10 abs units FTIR ......NOT A HARD limit but a good RULE OF THUMB for ideal combustion sensing at ring and combustion chamber. 

 

Go with that. Can't fix stupid, pearls to swine, take your choice. 

Edited by customboss
  • 3 weeks later...
Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

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It's a long read and requires a good mental filter but worth the nuggets of gold buried within if you can: 

 

Do Some Required Assembly

 

https://www.stle.org/images/pdf/STLE_ORG/BOK/OM_OA/Additives/Special Additive Report_Viscosity Index Improvers_tlt article_Sept11.pdf

 

[Snippet] Placek believes that the added performance requirements for a VI improver in lower-viscosity engine oil may lead to the need to shift to a higher-performing polymer. “Some concern has been expressed about a loss of hydrodynamic lubrication that may accompany the use of lower viscosity oils for improved fuel efficiency,” Placek says. “If high-performance VI improvers can help maintain equipment durability while also delivering improved fuel efficiency, then there could be a shift to higher performance VI improvers for engine oils in the future. [End quote]

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OnTheReel Senior Enthusiast

OnTheReel

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Posted

I will say this…we really don’t necessarily need higher performing polymers, we just need more MOFT, and there’s other/better ways to get there.

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Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

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A 0W20 or even a 5W20 can be made with a HTHS over 3.0. MTP30K, Red Line HP, Evolve EvoSyn 5W20 to name three. 

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