Non-dexos oil

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, Chuck FB said:

The gist is that whatever is in the Valvoline R&P is helping reverse deposits and would stand to reason that if an oil with those additives was used from the start the deposits would be far less. Time will tell with the Mobil oil they just came out with as its being marketed on a somewhat similar theme to the R&P, or put another way it would suggest that not all the commonly obtained oils and that includes Dexos certified oils on the shelf are created equally

 

DEXOS oils all have a very similar add package and identical base oil packages. Each DEXOS version is different in both regards. Each blender is required to surrender the exact formulation to acquire the license. It is the reason Valvoline R&P, AMSOIL, Red Line, TORCO and a few others do not have this license. Not even all Mobil 1 oils are DEXOS licensed. 

[Another JR]

17 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

DEXOS oils all have a very similar add package and identical base oil packages. Each DEXOS version is different in both regards. Each blender is required to surrender the exact formulation to acquire the license. It is the reason Valvoline R&P, AMSOIL, Red Line, TORCO and a few others do not have this license. Not even all Mobil 1 oils are DEXOS licensed. 

Some (or maybe just one) of the Mobil 1 5w-30 variants have a large Dexos flag on the front label of the bottle. However, it seems like all of the ones that don’t have that flag still have a fine print statement on the back label that they meet the Dexos spec. Do you know if the two types of labeling mean the same thing, or is one type licensed and the other aren’t (but they still claim to meet the spec?  Thanks

[Z45]

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Did you know that first formulation was a PAO/Group I blend? A pure PAO won't hold the average SAE add package. 

 

OCI claims were made on end user cost analysis not on performance. Early on PAO was silly expensive. 

I tried to buy Mobil 1 when it came out circa 1975 but it was hard to find around here.  AMSOIL was not. It made like 200+ from me.

Edited April 10 by Z45

[Grumpy Bear]

3 hours ago, Another JR said:

Some (or maybe just one) of the Mobil 1 5w-30 variants have a large Dexos flag on the front label of the bottle. However, it seems like all of the ones that don’t have that flag still have a fine print statement on the back label that they meet the Dexos spec. Do you know if the two types of labeling mean the same thing, or is one type licensed and the other aren’t (but they still claim to meet the spec?  Thanks

 

Not exactly. Remember in grade school hearing that math axiom, "All squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares"? 

 

When an oil flies the DEXOS flag it means it is, 1.) Chemically compliant 2.) Performance tested and passed 3.) Paid my dues to fly the flag. 4.) GM knows exactly what's in the bottle and we have an NDA. 

 

When an oil only says on the back label, "Meets the DEXOS spec" it could mean a few things. 1.) It is chemically compliant and it does meet the test standards but I'm not paying you nor am I giving you my recipe. (Valvoline R&P) 2.) Is not chemically compliant yet meets performance testing. (Mobil 1 ESP) 3.) Is not chemically compliant and far exceeds performance standards. AMSOILSS/Red Line HP/TORCO SR-5. 

 

Oils like AMSOIL, Red Line, TORCO, and even Mobil 1 ESP far exceed the performance standards, do not comply with the favored chemistries and couldn't be licensed even if they wished to be. 

 

GM would like people to believe that any oil not DEXOS licensed is sub par. Simply not true. Most of the boutiques and a handful of Big Box oils out perform in spades. Give you just one spec to chew on. DEXOS1Gen2 NOACK standard is 13% and that was improved by DEXOS1Gen3 to 12.5%. (Lower is better) AMSOIL SS 0W20 has a NOACH of 8.5 and the 5W30 is 6.7%. Red Line HP 0W20 is 5% while the 5W30 is 6%. Both of these oil exceed standards by half or nearly so. 

 

Cleanliness or deposits. AMSOIL is 40% cleaner than Gen2 oils. Fact, cleanliness, deposit and sludge control of Gen2 licensed oils is the same as API SN+/SP. Neither were clean enough to keeps rings free thus the Gen3 oils, which still aren't as good. 

Edited April 10 by Grumpy Bear

[No F-bdy Bs]

23 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

5,000 miles? Why not the book 7,500 miles? Either way, do I get to pick the "real world" service? 

 

You think I 'tortured' Pepper to 'get a result'. Anyone want to field that ball? 

 

Math not your long suit? Arrhenius Rule describes the exponential relationship between the rate constant of a chemical reaction and temperature. Then perhaps I should have mentioned the differences in the "Oxidation Onset Temperature" as well. Arrhenius is what happens AFTER the onset temperature is breached and POA/POE is quit a bit higher than a Group II/III Full Synthetic. So 5 F is huge in that context. 

 

I can show you real world in the video below BUT will it matter to you? I get the feeling your idea of a tangible result is something like, "It uses less than a quart in a thousand miles, doesn't over heat and it still running". Good for you.

 

Just short of 200K on Pepper and that motor uses no oil.        

 

This motor in the video lived on Toyota Synthetic from it's first day and is his wife's personal ride. Take note of what it had to clean up not how clean it became. The varnish is the result of following OEM recommendations using their synthetic oil. Note before and after pistons from mule engines in Valvoline's lab. 

 

Stuck rings. It's what happens on OEM intervals and shelf/OEM Synthetic oils. Doesn't happen to motors using PAO/POE-(AN) blends on sane OCI's. Stuck rings is something most people notice only in oil consumption and are GROOMED to see it as NORMAL. It isn't. 

 

 

 

 

Are you saying stuck rings were the norm before  V R&P? 

As to your 200k valvetrain shot, well it wasn't uncommon for engines to go 300k+ well over 2 decades ago, long before all the niche oils. All without stuck rings and oil burn. 

You denying that? 

[chris21]

1 hour ago, No F-bdy Bs said:

Are you saying stuck rings were the norm before  V R&P? 

As to your 200k valvetrain shot, well it wasn't uncommon for engines to go 300k+ well over 2 decades ago, long before all the niche oils. All without stuck rings and oil burn. 

You denying that? 

2 decades ago first oil change at 1000 miles then 3000 mile OCI was an almost across the board manufacturer recommendation. Edit to add... Also most manufacturers specified 10w-30 in warm climate and 5w-30 in cold. And higher viscosity for hd use. Not the 0 weight oil they call for now.

Edited April 11 by chris21

[Z45]

NASA did not care if AMSOIL was dexos licensed.

Quote

AMSOIL INC

Congratulations to NASA and the Artemis team! The Artemis II mission successfully splashed down on Earth today after a trip around the moon.

 

Working closely with NASA engineers, AMSOIL supported the mission by developing a specialized fluid used throughout the spacecraft.

 

Whether driving around the block or flying around the moon, AMSOIL delivers protection and performance you can count on.

 

 

Edited April 11 by Z45

[Grumpy Bear]

7 hours ago, No F-bdy Bs said:

1.) Are you saying stuck rings were the norm before  V R&P? 

2.) As to your 200k valvetrain shot, well it wasn't uncommon for engines to go 300k+ well over 2 decades ago, long before all the niche oils. All without stuck rings and oil burn. 

You denying that? 

 

 

1.) I'm saying Valvoline made a product to cure a real problem that works. I'm saying there are niche oils that will absolutely prevent it. So yea, hot and cold struck rings are an issue now and always has been; and how do I know that for sure? API has a test sequence for it and allows it. (ASTM D8256) Been testing for decades . New oils have to pass at zero in the test sequence which has zero relevance to your "Real World" 

 

 https://www.swri.org/sites/default/files/sequence-vh-test.pdf

 

2.) No, and yet two decades ago no one was using low tension DLH coated rings either. No 207F thermostats. We weren't sticking 2.7 liter motor making 310 SAE NET hp in full sized trucks. We didn't run them hot as the center of the sun. 207 F thermostats and minimal oil and water circulation. We didn't run 0W20 oil in 4 to 7 liter V8's. 

 

2. b.) That valve train shot is cleaner than new. You missed that and those seals are like new as well. Show me yours at that milage. This motor uses the same ring type and cylinder prep as the Ecotec3 and has the same TSB for "STUCK RINGS THAT CAUSE OIL CONSUMPTION. This one uses none at this milage and that sir is RARE. 

 

Look, you do what you want. I don't buy or maintain your stuff. 

Edited April 11 by Grumpy Bear

[Z45]

https://www.theautopian.com/why-the-conflict-in-iran-is-changing-how-engine-oil-is-made-and-causing-oil-brands-to-get-upset-with-gm/

 

[Grumpy Bear]

8 hours ago, Z45 said:

https://www.theautopian.com/why-the-conflict-in-iran-is-changing-how-engine-oil-is-made-and-causing-oil-brands-to-get-upset-with-gm/

 

 

This is going to effect 0W* and 5W* products the most in the general market but DEXOS has a bigger issue. No read across to PAO or POE/AN. It was a stupid rule when it was made and now it bites them in the ****. 

 

Group III has a viscosity rage as a base oil of 4 to 8 cSt. GTL is even lower. So a natural SAE 8 to SAE 20. Group II bright stocks range 4-30 cSt and POA 4-70 with mPOA reaching out much further. AN's run 5-20 cSt and Esters are dealers choice. 

 

DEXOS boxed itself out limiting base oil selection. Group II bright stocks won't meet their low temp or cleanliness or NOACK performance and Group's IV and V have very limited approval. Gen3 the most liberal. They know these last two groups outperform; just being stubborn on testing to their own harm. Admitting they are superior removes doubts of using boutiques that don't rely on that market. A genie that can't be put back int he bottle. 

 

What's going to hit everyone is the additives. And I don't have enough information to even venture a guess. 

 

 

[Pryme]

Just did a oil change on my high performance motorcycle which runs Amsoil for 3k although I change it sooner and no sparkle in the oil and I run it up to 12k plus rpm regularly not to mention it has to do double duty lubricating the clutch pack. The sheer forces must be extraordinary. If it’s good enough for that environment it’s way more than good enough for a lumber wagon truck that rarely if ever sees 5k rpm and it’s not dexos approved. Oh no. 

[Z45]

fyi

Quote

While AMSOIL manufactures our products in the United States and sources the vast majority domestically, the raw materials used to make lubricants are part of a global supply chain. Crude oil, base oils, additives and many specialty chemical components are bought and sold in worldwide markets. 

Crude oil is priced globally. Whether oil is produced in Texas, North Dakota, Canada or the Middle East, its price is largely determined by the world market. When supply from the Middle East is threatened, global prices rise for everyone. U.S. refiners, additive suppliers and chemical manufacturers all pay more for their raw materials, and those increased costs eventually affect every lubricant company. 

 

In addition, many critical lubricant ingredients are only produced by a small number of suppliers around the world. Even when we purchase from an American supplier, that supplier may rely on raw materials, feedstocks or specialty chemicals that originate overseas. And as global entities, these suppliers have commitments to customers around the world and they tap their U.S. manufacturing facilities to help supply foreign customers. As a result, disruptions anywhere in the world can reduce availability and increase costs everywhere. 

 

Facilities responsible for a huge percentage of global base oil production have been permanently damaged. As a result, supply is short for the entire world, and prices are up substantially for the entire world. [b]Base oils have increased up to 100% in price.[/b] Additives are up at least 15%. Diesel fuel is up over 20%, driving significant increases from freight companies. Approximately 50% of the world’s supply of polyethylene, which is used to make plastic bottles, has been disrupted, driving increases of 50%-80%. 

 

The list goes on. 

 

This is not unique to AMSOIL. Every lubricant manufacturer in North America is facing the same challenges. What makes AMSOIL different is how we respond. Our sourcing team has worked aggressively to secure supply and maintain availability. Our product development team has developed alternative formulations where possible to preserve critical materials without sacrificing performance. We are doing everything we can to minimize the impact on Dealers and customers while continuing to deliver the quality and protection AMSOIL is known for. 

 

 

 

[newdude]

On 4/11/2026 at 10:27 AM, No F-bdy Bs said:

Are you saying stuck rings were the norm before  V R&P? 

As to your 200k valvetrain shot, well it wasn't uncommon for engines to go 300k+ well over 2 decades ago, long before all the niche oils. All without stuck rings and oil burn. 

You denying that? 

 

 

I'm not Grumpy Bear, but yes.  Stuck rings were and are still a problem before Valvoline Restore and Protect hit the market.  R&P was released to try and resolve engines plagued by that problem.  Newer stuff runs hotter at the top of the piston.  That combined with fuel quality and fuel burn quality during combustion has contributed to higher odds of carbon build up at the top of the piston and the ring grooves.    

 

I can tell you first hand, R&P WORKS.  I bought a 2009 Pontiac Vibe last year with the notorious oil consumer 2.4 2AZ-FE Toyota engine under the hood.  Toyota had built these engines prior to 2011 with new (at the time) low tension rings but also had a questionable oil drain back passages in the pistons that would clog easily.  

 

I got the car with 234,XXXmi on it.  It, no joke, used 1 QUART of oil in 400 MILES.  I'm on oil change #4 of R&P.  During the last fill, the consumption DROPPED to 1 quart in 2000 miles.  I haven't put enough on the 4th fill to see if its improved further, but I suspect it will.  

 

I tried one other method prior to R&P, which was BG EPR (Engine Performance Restoration).  That didn't touch the consumption one bit.  

 

So yea, its actually more important than ever to use a high quality oil from day one on a new engine, or if there is oil consumption present on an existing engine, using a product like R&P or the new Mobil 1 Advance Clean to try and resolve consumption issues and clean up the piston rings, ring grooves and oil passages.  

 

 

On 4/11/2026 at 6:04 PM, Grumpy Bear said:

 

 

1.) I'm saying Valvoline made a product to cure a real problem that works. I'm saying there are niche oils that will absolutely prevent it. 

 

 

 

Question for you.  If you were running R&P, would you just stick with it?  Or run it long enough to see enough consumption reduction (lets say a quart in 3000mi or less than that) and then switch to something like Amsoil or another higher end product?

[Grumpy Bear]

34 minutes ago, newdude said:

Question for you.  If you were running R&P, would you just stick with it?  Or run it long enough to see enough consumption reduction (lets say a quart in 3000mi or less than that) and then switch to something like Amsoil or another higher end product?

 

Interesting question as this is an unusual product. It cleans, yes but it also has a decent HTHS viscosity. 3.3 cP last time I looked. Nearly meets the spec of an SAE 40 (3.5 min). Seems to have a decent add pack as well. So, especially in the case of quart million mile motor....keep using it. 

 

If the rings needed freeing at say 60-80 K then I'd use it until it stopped improving and see where I was. If the recovery was partial (uses a quart between 5K changes) then I'd stay with it. Some bore/ring damage has been done and a cleaner oil won't make it last any longer. If however it fully recovered (zero to less than a cup, by dipstick eyeball) over that same period of time AND I was inclined to run it until the cows come home then yea, AMSOIL SS or Red Line HP or one of the offerings from High Performance Lubricants like No-VII 5W30 would be on the short list. If I were just going to trade it then stay with the R&P. It will do just fine. Even for the next guy. 

 

You are also in a unique position as a Master Tech and better able to gauge the here and now condition as well as the likely future that I could from a distance. Trust your training. You're good at this.  

 

I'd add this as well. ANY oil is like a sponge. It will only hold what it will hold so even this super cleaner has a limit as to the miles that can be run on it and that varies with blowby and season. 

[PunchT37]

Not only do these newer engines have low tension rings, they have narrow rings for reduced friction. The oil control rings have the narrow expanders between the rings. These don`t flow like the ring packs from the old days, even when new. So, one can see what happens when a GDI engine piles on miles with mostly clogged expander holes.

 

Well,let`s not leave out the port injection and carb guys. Them too.

 

 

One needs to keep these things clean from new. That`s why I will only buy a new modern engine.