New Gm Motor Oil Requirement For 2011?

[MaverickZ71]

I know that a lot of folks on this forum say that "motor oil is motor oil." And I would agree that changing the oil at the frequency required is more important than running a certain brand of oil.

 

But all of the posts about the AFM/lifter issues have me a little worried, and I was thinking about changing to at least a synthetic blend motor oil in my 5.3L LC9 engine. Up until this afternoon, I would be a little leery about running a full synthetic for fear of oil leaks, something my last GM vehicle (96 Impala SS LT1 running Mobil1) had a bad problem with.

 

To that end, I was doing a little internet research this afternoon during the NASCAR red flag, and was surprised to see a reference to a new 2011 GM oil requirement called "DEXOS1". Here is what it says, and it sounds pretty strict:

New Oil Spec For 2011 GM Vehicles

 

HOUSTON, July 2010—General Motors is introducing Dexos1™, a new global engine oil specification for gasoline and E85-fueled vehicles, in all 2011 model year Chevrolet, Buick, GMC and Cadillac vehicles. Basically, the company requires that every owner of these vehicles use an oil that is Dexos1™ approved at every oil change. It also encourages owners of pre-2011 GM vehicles (except diesels) to use a Dexos1™-approved oil as well, as the new specification offers several advantages over previously available motor oils, including improved levels of:

 

• Engine cleanliness

 

• Corrosion protection

 

• Sludge control

 

• Wear protection

 

• Aeration control

 

• Fuel economy

 

GM says these will result in improved engine life and performance.

 

Therefore, every owner of the GM vehicles mentioned — new and old — should be pleased to learn that new, next-generation Pennzoil Platinum® full synthetic motor oil is fully Dexos1™-approved in the popular SAE 5W-30 viscosity grade.

 

This would seem to suggest that GM is switching to a full synthetic oil requirement in 2011, and will require proof of such for warranty work. WOW It makes one wonder if GM is tired of fighting valvetrain problems and are just mandating synthetic oil now to try to help them with warranty work. If that's what GM is doing, now I'm thinking about full synthetic as opposed to a synthetic blend, I guess.

 

Do any of the GM Techs on this forum have any info on this new DEXOS1 requirement from GM?

I don't tow very much (horse trailer) but temps here have been known to vary from 15 (F) degrees below zero in winter to 115 (F) in summer, and I do a lot of stop and go driving in town. My oil change monitor is calling for changes between 5000 and 6000 miles, but I change it every 4000 with Pennzoil conventional and ACDelco (PF48?)filter. Frankly, I wouldn't mind running a full synthetic oil, for peace of mind that I'm doing the best I can to keep it sludge-free and avoid AFM/lifter issues. But I sure don't need any oil leak hassles like I had with that Impala SS! My Dad is a Ford fan and says that it's a well-known fact that GM engines make their oil dirtier a lot faster than Fords do. That's news to me, but he usually is right-on with anything mechanical. Is there anything to that?

 

Do any of you GMT900 (2007+) owners have oil leak problems while running full synthetic oil?

 

Thanks in advance for any replies!

 

[Z45]

Read this and you wonder if GM motives are better oil or more money in their pockets....

 

Wednesday, March 31, 2010 VOLUME 10 ISSUE 13

 

GM Switches to Flat Fee on Dexos

By George Gill

 

General Motors has switched the licensing fee on its Dexos global engine oil specification from a royalty on every gallon of Dexos sold to a flat annual fee based on an oil company’s market share, a GM official confirmed to Lube Report.

 

Originally, licensees were to have paid a $1,000 annual fee for each product, plus a royalty of 36 cents on every gallon of Dexos they sell.

 

Eric R. Johnson of General Motors Powertrain, North America, said his company made the change to a flat annual fee in response to feedback from oil marketers.

 

“Oil companies have indicated that a flat fee helps dramatically reduce the logistics that would be needed to comply with the required reporting under the per-gallon fee structure,” Johnson told Lube Report. “Oil companies have indicated that this gives them the freedom to tailor a Dexos rollout program that fits within their individual marketing and manufacturing plan. It also frees the oil company to match production with demand, on a manufacturing plant-by-plant or region-by-region basis. We agree with the oil companies that this is a more user friendly process.”

 

None of the oil majors contacted by Lube Report about the Dexos fee change had replied by deadline yesterday. As of press time, GM officials had not provided Lube Report with more detail on how the flat fee is calculated.

 

According to industry sources familiar with Dexos, GM will calculate the flat fee by using the total passenger car motor oil market in gallons, GM’s market share percentage and the oil marketer’s market share percentage. GM uses those three numbers to calculate the potential number of gallons of an oil marketers’ PCMO – everything, not just Dexos – that could end up in GM vehicles. The automaker does this individually for each region, sources indicate, though an oil marketer has to buy a global license.

 

GM then charges a per-gallon fee on the resulting number, sources said.

 

Sources suggested GM considers the fee a “flat” one in that GM looks at market shares today, and then calculates what an oil marketer’s fee will be over the next four years.

 

Previously, GM’s Eric Johnson said the royalties were needed because a number of engine sequence tests are soon going to need replacing, as they become obsolete or the hardware becomes unavailable. He noted that GM’s costs for engine test development will be huge, and the company needs to prepare for that.

 

The Dexos licensing fees are far beyond what the lubricants industry is used to paying to the American Petroleum Institute. Currently, licensees pay a flat fee of $1,250 per company ($250 more for non-API members), and an annual royalty of $0.002 per gallon for volumes exceeding 1 million gallons a year. The fee entitles the qualifying oil to show API’s donut and/or starburst trademarks.

 

In a November 2009 letter to GM, Independent Lubricant Manufacturers Association officials stated their opposition to the royalty system. “ILMA firmly believes that GM’s substantial per-gallon royalty charge is a barrier to entry for independent lubricant manufacturers and poses serious competitive problems.”

 

In the letter, ILMA pointed out that because there are four Dexos viscosity grades, the basic annual licensing fee paid to GM would be $4,000 per company. “Accordingly, ILMA questions why GM’s royalty is and needs to be approximately 240 percent higher than API’s royalty (not including the first 1 million gallons without a royalty under the API license).”

 

ILMA General Counsel Jeffrey Leiter yesterday said it’s unclear whether GM’s fee change addresses those concerns, especially the vast difference compared to API’s system. “When looking at API’s license fee, the way that’s set up is such that we think it’s very fair in terms of minimizing any entry barriers you might have,” he told Lube Report.

 

Leiter said ILMA remains concerned about whether GM dealers will have the same royalty fees included in their purchase price of Dexos oil. “I’ve been led to believe by some industry folks I’ve talked to that GM does not intend to pass the royalty or licensing fee through to the dealers,” he continued, “which would give them a competitive advantage over quick lubes and other places where folks could buy product. ILMA members would be selling to the quick lubes and people like that, so that becomes the other concern we’d still have and would want to see addressed.”

 

ILMA has been approached by organizations other than API and quick-lube groups about concerns over Dexos, according to Leiter. “We still haven’t been able to come to any sort of agreement with these other groups about a particular strategy to approach GM on addressing all these concerns.”

 

The Center for Quality Assurance, part of the Midland, Mich.-based Savant Group, serves as program administrator for Dexos licensing. Dexos 2, designed for use in passenger car diesel engines, launched last year in Europe. The company plans to make its gasoline-fueled counterpart, Dexos 1, available globally for its 2011 model year vehicles.

 

Dexos uses performance tests from ILSAC and Europe’s ACEA, plus some proprietary GM tests.

 

Some formulators who have reviewed the Dexos specification say they can only achieve it through heavy use of API Group III or polyalphaolefin base oils, due to its low Noack volatility limits. GM’s Johnson has said the specification is designed around GM’s performance needs, and not to exclude other base oils.

 

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article0017...gKWrjF,b1cwnrQf

[dlstewart01]

http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/nov2009/cover.htm

 

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbth...884&fpart=1

 

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38963

[Matt_]

Do any of you GMT900 (2007+) owners have oil leak problems while running full synthetic oil?

 

If you have an oil leak in ANY engine... it's NOT due to synthetic oil. That means that there's a problem and it needs to be fixed.

[truckofwinandawesome]

does this specification also go for 2010 and Older vehicles as well?

[Black02Silverado]

does this specification also go for 2010 and Older vehicles as well?

 

It is required for 2011 vehicles and newer. As for using it in older vehicles there isn't any issues with that but there will be plenty of other choices still available since it is only GM that requires the new oil.

 

Here is some more info on dexos, http://www.noln.net/inside_features/Countd...exos-1_0710.php

 

As well as the new GF-5 specification, http://www.noln.net/features/feature2-1_0710.php

[Vortec-Z71]

I know the interval between changes on conventional oil is 3,000 miles but what is it for fully synthetic oil? I'm thinking of making the switch on my next oil change.

[MaverickZ71]

Hey, I looked at the links you all provided during your replies, and Dexos IS requiring a synthetic oil base formula with a ton of Moly in it, as they no longer use Zinc, which was a whole lot cheaper.

 

Sounds like the synthetic oil production in the US is maxed out, so we will be buying a lot of foreign produced synthetic oil. Valvoline is trying to fight this, and one oil expert said this is amounts to a GM effort to produce "DEX-oil" like they did "Dexcool".

 

Here is a good summary of the new DEXOS1 requirement posted by an oil expert:

 

- GM wants to really push the efficiency of their engines for CAFE (new, almost impossible to meet fuel mileage requirements) reasons by going with marginally protective, low viscosity oils.

 

- These marginally protective oils now need to be boosted with antiwear additives to enhance their protection, so engines won't get ruined.

 

- The problem with boosting ZDDP levels is that catalytic converters can suffer (SL vs SM effect), so moly disulfide is the antiwear agent of choice. Unfortunately, MoS2 is horribly expensive.

 

It seems that GM is really complicating things, and taking a step backward in technology. They're like a dog chasing it's tail, trying to iron out this issue they've created. I can't imagine the extra cost of the oil to the consumer will result in any kind of payback over the life of the vehicle.

 

Good luck to GM trying to selling this oil to the general public. I can only hope that the old 5W-30 will be legal to sell and be around for a long time.

 

Whatever happened to good old dino oil? I hope GM isn't getting too fancy for their own good, what with all of these AFM motors and high $ new super oils, etc!

[the hammer]

I know the interval between changes on conventional oil is 3,000 miles but what is it for fully synthetic oil? I'm thinking of making the switch on my next oil change.

 

Chris, the 3,000 mile oil change interval is market produced so that the oil companies and oil service businesses can make more business for themselves. It is not needed unless you want to just feel better about yourself. It is not any more beneficial for your engine. The gimmick is only there so that unknowing consumers spend more money and the businesses make more money. It is not needed nor recommended by GM nor other manufacturers. Just look in your owner's manual. GM does not state 3,000 mile oil change intervals. It is usually along the lines of 5,000 mile oil change if I remember correctly. And, that is with them expecting you to use regular non-synthetic oil. More than mileage goes into the factors anyway, that is why we have the DIC computer to remind us.

[MaverickZ71]

Do any of you GMT900 (2007+) owners have oil leak problems while running full synthetic oil?

 

If you have an oil leak in ANY engine... it's NOT due to synthetic oil. That means that there's a problem and it needs to be fixed.

 

I agree with you, up to a point. My old Impala SS motor must not have been built with very exacting tolerances or very good gaskets, because Mobil1 leaked out of it like crazy. But the original dino oil did not, and after several new Fel-Pro gaskets were installed under warranty and it still leaked a little, I got sick of the leaks, I switched back to QS 5W-30 and most of the remaining leaks stopped again. Keep in mind this was a daily driver, but still a babied car with the very best of maintenance, not something that was being abused. My GM dealer at the time said "yeah, synthetic will do that in some vehicles . . ." I do appreciate your response. Nice truck!

[truckofwinandawesome]

wait, I think this dexos requirement kinda sounds familiar...OH WAIT! the Chrysler ATF Fiasco! basically, the Chrysler ATF Fiasco was Chrysler requiring a Fluid in their 4 Speed Electronic Automatic (Known in Chrysler Terms as the A604, the Ultradrive, or the 41TE.) that DID NOT EXIST at the Time, so the Owners of those Transmissions were forced to use Dexron, which in a Chrysler Transmission is like Slitting your own throat or taking a Cyanide Pill! needless to say, this RUINED Chrysler's Automatic Transmission reputation!

[redvett]

I don't know what everyone else is going to do but i will continue to use Mobil 1 in all my vehicles including my newest a 2011 Buick Enclave. I do not expect GM owners that change there own oil to change to dexos for quite a few years to come. GM can not deny warranty since current engines were never designed to use dexos . As of today you cannot buy dexos, its not available until 10/01/10.

[jblakeney]

I have heard for years from people that you don't have to change oil every 3000 miles..... You don't have to change the filter every time you change the oil.... And hey, I have even seen their engines laying on the tear down table and build stand in our machine shop........

 

In our delivery fleet we run Ford Rangers with 2.3L engines..... Our latest truck to leave the fleet had well over 800k on the clock (that was the point the ODO gave up the fight and quit working)..... It had always had the CHEAPEST oil they had at the quick lube that trip and a NAPA GOLD filter... Now the cheapest oil this week might not be the same thing next week... So they brand hopped oil there entire life.... It just had the oil changed regularly and the engine had NEVER left the motor mounts and the head had not left the block....

 

Me and my vehicles use Castrol. My next new vehicle will have castrol also. I don't care what any manufacturer says it will HAVE CASTROL in the crank case.

 

And yes I know people out there believe there little monitor..... Go ahead and believe that little light, that does not check the oil condition, but run off a calculation. I wish you best of luck with that.

 

Oh, yeah castrol edge meets GF-5 standards.... Which is what the Pennzoil appears to be talking about.

 

And to the guy with the Impala...... I have seen seals blow out from the wrong oil on new engines.....

 

Jbo

[the hammer]

I have heard for years from people that you don't have to change oil every 3000 miles..... You don't have to change the filter every time you change the oil.... And hey, I have even seen their engines laying on the tear down table and build stand in our machine shop........

 

In our delivery fleet we run Ford Rangers with 2.3L engines..... Our latest truck to leave the fleet had well over 800k on the clock (that was the point the ODO gave up the fight and quit working)..... It had always had the CHEAPEST oil they had at the quick lube that trip and a NAPA GOLD filter... Now the cheapest oil this week might not be the same thing next week... So they brand hopped oil there entire life.... It just had the oil changed regularly and the engine had NEVER left the motor mounts and the head had not left the block....

 

Me and my vehicles use Castrol. My next new vehicle will have castrol also. I don't care what any manufacturer says it will HAVE CASTROL in the crank case.

 

And yes I know people out there believe there little monitor..... Go ahead and believe that little light, that does not check the oil condition, but run off a calculation. I wish you best of luck with that.

 

Oh, yeah castrol edge meets GF-5 standards.... Which is what the Pennzoil appears to be talking about.

 

And to the guy with the Impala...... I have seen seals blow out from the wrong oil on new engines.....

 

Jbo

 

I can attest to castrol. My fam has a 1972 Ford 3000 tractor that still to this day doesn't burn a drop of oil nor does it leak oil anywhere and all it has ever had is castrol GTX and Fram oil flters or whatever dad used back in the 70's (no idea, wasn't around back then).

[shocktrp]

Here is a good summary of the new DEXOS1 requirement posted by an oil expert:

 

- GM wants to really push the efficiency of their engines for CAFE (new, almost impossible to meet fuel mileage requirements) reasons by going with marginally protective, low viscosity oils.

 

- These marginally protective oils now need to be boosted with antiwear additives to enhance their protection, so engines won't get ruined.

 

- The problem with boosting ZDDP levels is that catalytic converters can suffer (SL vs SM effect), so moly disulfide is the antiwear agent of choice. Unfortunately, MoS2 is horribly expensive.

 

It seems that GM is really complicating things, and taking a step backward in technology. They're like a dog chasing it's tail, trying to iron out this issue they've created. I can't imagine the extra cost of the oil to the consumer will result in any kind of payback over the life of the vehicle.

 

Good luck to GM trying to selling this oil to the general public. I can only hope that the old 5W-30 will be legal to sell and be around for a long time.

 

Whatever happened to good old dino oil? I hope GM isn't getting too fancy for their own good, what with all of these AFM motors and high $ new super oils, etc!

 

So they have a new shitty oil that needs additives to properly protect the motor?

 

It sounds to me like adding the "plain old" Mobil1 to your 2011 LSx (LY6, etc) motor will be just fine.