Twin Turbo V6 in the works

music · March 26, 2013

Thanks bosro... good to hear first-hand observations from someone that uses their truck for what it is. I'd keep a close eye on how the turbo system is performing, simply because of the problems I've read about. It seems that some folks get "bad" ones, with no fix from Ford. The "spit/stutter" that I experienced on my very first test drive is felt by some folks on a routine basis. The one I drove cleared up, but that was not a good experience.

Compressing air into a chamber for combustion is akin to pushing it through an air compressor. Whatever is in the air gets compressed/condensed too, so you get water. There's also some delay, and the computer is "guessing" at what it should be vs what it really is. That's a lot easier to do w/ a n/a motor, since air flow is a direct function of motor rpm. Air flow w/ turbos can have huge transient spikes, making it difficult to adjust fuel/timing. The computer is having to adjust all of this on the fly, and trying to compensate for a lot of non-ambient conditions. If anything gets out of whack, well... it's gets complicated quick. The computer can't adapt to every circumstance, so it just does the best that it can. If I owned one, I'd pay very close attention to how it runs while under warranty, 'cause I don't think it will be cheap to deal with later, and Ford has a history of leaving customers "high and dry" for their next big thing.

bosro · March 26, 2013

I guess you can only feed the troll for so long, if Chevy does turbo an engine, make it a v8 and show ford what they are capable of, though that's done daily.....

Another useless comment but whatever....

Good you have something useful....in your mind to contribute

bosro · March 26, 2013

Thanks bosro... good to hear first-hand observations from someone that uses their truck for what it is. I'd keep a close eye on how the turbo system is performing, simply because of the problems I've read about. It seems that some folks get "bad" ones, with no fix from Ford. The "spit/stutter" that I experienced on my very first test drive is felt by some folks on a routine basis. The one I drove cleared up, but that was not a good experience.

Compressing air into a chamber for combustion is akin to pushing it through an air compressor. Whatever is in the air gets compressed/condensed too, so you get water. There's also some delay, and the computer is "guessing" at what it should be vs what it really is. That's a lot easier to do w/ a n/a motor, since air flow is a direct function of motor rpm. Air flow w/ turbos can have huge transient spikes, making it difficult to adjust fuel/timing. The computer is having to adjust all of this on the fly, and trying to compensate for a lot of non-ambient conditions. If anything gets out of whack, well... it's gets complicated quick. The computer can't adapt to every circumstance, so it just does the best that it can. If I owned one, I'd pay very close attention to how it runs while under warranty, 'cause I don't think it will be cheap to deal with later, and Ford has a history of leaving customers "high and dry" for their next big thing.

Yes indeed I am going to pay a lot of attention to it.

I've got a couple years left on warranty we will see.

One thing you have to get used to is the odd noises these engines make....blowoffs,waste gates,bypasses...everything makes noise different than a V8

I know of only one other guy with the intercooler issue,living in a semi arid dry area has its advantages I guess.

kstruckcountry · March 26, 2013

That condensation issue is the main one I've heard about. Never really seen it happen on a diesel though? Why on a gas? Inter cooler design?

music · March 26, 2013

That condensation issue is the main one I've heard about. Never really seen it happen on a diesel though? Why on a gas? Inter cooler design?

A diesel turbo spins up slowly (spools), and the ignition is "automatic", so the ECM doesn't need to adjust timing (there is no spark). It only needs to adjust fuel, and the rate of change vs throttle is relatively slow. Diesel has low volatility, so it's easier to control under changing conditions. Compare that to the smaller EB motor. The turbos spin up very quickly, with huge MAF transients (requiring the ECM to guess at a steeply changing curve). The ECM has to adjust fueling and timing to compensate... on the fly. Gasoline/alcohol are highly volatile, and ignition is dependent on temp (engine and IAT). Response to changes in throttle is fast and relatively complex. Throw in a good dose of unexpected water from an intercooler that has been running constantly, even at low throttle, and the ECM parameters are suddenly out of whack. The motor coughs, throwing off the O2 sensors, etc., putting you into limp mode (or close to it).

That's a simple example (and a total guess at the issues some EB owners may have experienced), but I don't think it's far off. Basically, turbo diesels react slowly, and are inherently resistant to changes in ambient conditions and contaminants (very high compression / low fuel volatility).

Daryl LBZ · March 26, 2013

A guy at my work just bought a 5.0 F150 on Saturday. He didn't want the Ecoboost, and when he told the salesman that the salesman looked at him, and said that he was one of the first people to come in, and actually NOT ask for the Ecoboost. I guess I would be the second one.

I was poking around at a lot of different dealers on Sunday, and at both Ford dealerships I'm going to say that probably 95% of their F150 inventory was Ecoboosts. I think the one dealer had maybe 5 of the 5.0L trucks, and the other one I think had about the same. Of course the one truck they had that I liked was a Crew Cab Ecoboost, and it was $50,000!!!

Carder09 · March 26, 2013

Damn, 50k huh? For that price, I would go for the 6.2, which we all know out tows and out performs the triumphant EB, and truck on.

Daryl LBZ · March 26, 2013

Damn, 50k huh? For that price, I would go for the 6.2, which we all know out tows and out performs the triumphant EB, and truck on.

Yea idk what it is with Ford's pricing, but it's ridiculous. They also had a Ford Focus that they were asking $29,000 for!

Every truck except for one that they had on the lot cost more than my truck did including taxes. The one that cost about as much as mine still didn't have half the bells and whistles my truck came with.

'01LS1 · March 27, 2013

A guy at my work just bought a 5.0 F150 on Saturday. He didn't want the Ecoboost, and when he told the salesman that the salesman looked at him, and said that he was one of the first people to come in, and actually NOT ask for the Ecoboost. I guess I would be the second one.

I was poking around at a lot of different dealers on Sunday, and at both Ford dealerships I'm going to say that probably 95% of their F150 inventory was Ecoboosts. I think the one dealer had maybe 5 of the 5.0L trucks, and the other one I think had about the same. Of course the one truck they had that I liked was a Crew Cab Ecoboost, and it was $50,000!!!

They all are pushing the msrp's up to that range. Financing is cheap(compared to a few years ago) & everyone wants big discounts. So this is how the mfg's are going to roll the $10k off of sticker deals.

Have seen 2 wheel drive extended cab 6.5 beds with msrp's in the $40k range.

All in all, it is just sad where this market is getting driven price wise.

As far as the twin turbo thing. This sentence caught my attention...20 HP gain on premium fuel?

Although the only fuel estimates (17/25 mpg city/highway) GM provided in the press release relies on factors that include a smaller, lighter car sedan platform, we're guessing it won't drop by much when tested inside a Silverado, which some insiders have told us could offer several lightweight platform packages. It's also possible GM will put this new Silverado twin-turbo V-6 through EPA testing procedures with regular fuel (although Cadillac specs show premium fuel will be required) and take the initial hit in power output and possibly fuel economy in order to be able to say the mainstream Silverado will run on regular fuel, just like Ford's EcoBoost. We should note Ford tells us that its power outputs improve slightly, measuring 385 horsepower and 430 pounds-feet of torque when using premium fuel, instead of the regular fuel the owner's manual recommends

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2013/03/ford-vs-gm-twin-turbo-showdown.html

Daryl LBZ · March 27, 2013

They all are pushing the msrp's up to that range. Financing is cheap(compared to a few years ago) & everyone wants big discounts. So this is how the mfg's are going to roll the $10k off of sticker deals.

Have seen 2 wheel drive extended cab 6.5 beds with msrp's in the $40k range.

All in all, it is just sad where this market is getting driven price wise.

As far as the twin turbo thing. This sentence caught my attention...20 HP gain on premium fuel?

Although the only fuel estimates (17/25 mpg city/highway) GM provided in the press release relies on factors that include a smaller, lighter car sedan platform, we're guessing it won't drop by much when tested inside a Silverado, which some insiders have told us could offer several lightweight platform packages. It's also possible GM will put this new Silverado twin-turbo V-6 through EPA testing procedures with regular fuel (although Cadillac specs show premium fuel will be required) and take the initial hit in power output and possibly fuel economy in order to be able to say the mainstream Silverado will run on regular fuel, just like Ford's EcoBoost. We should note Ford tells us that its power outputs improve slightly, measuring 385 horsepower and 430 pounds-feet of torque when using premium fuel, instead of the regular fuel the owner's manual recommends

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2013/03/ford-vs-gm-twin-turbo-showdown.html

I'll just never buy new again. I like buying slightly used better anyhow which is what I will do when I buy my next vehicle.

'01LS1 · March 27, 2013

I'll just never buy new again. I like buying slightly used better anyhow which is what I will do when I buy my next vehicle.

That is what I thought too. Used retail market has been crazy high since March 2011, particularly on trucks/suvs.

You can buy a new half ton cheaper than a similar 1-3 year old unit off the lot. Maybe score a deal straight out if you have cash.

The market in general is reacting to the average age of vehicles on the road being 11 years old, then add the cheap financing that gets progressively higher for aged units. That is according to auto news last fall. So it kind of brings the $9-$11k off of new msrp back into perspective.

Daryl LBZ · March 27, 2013

That is what I thought too. Used retail market has been crazy high since March 2011, particularly on trucks/suvs.

You can buy a new half ton cheaper than a similar 1-3 year old unit off the lot. Maybe score a deal straight out if you have cash.

The market in general is reacting to the average age of vehicles on the road being 11 years old, then add the cheap financing that gets progressively higher for aged units. That is according to auto news last fall. So it kind of brings the $9-$11k off of new msrp back into perspective.

The cars I've been looking at aren't priced to bad for used. IDK about trucks? Mine isn't worth nearly as much on KBB as I thought it would be. Amazing how they want so much for used vehicles, but claim yours isn't worth squat.

Chris · March 27, 2013

Amazon needs to start selling cars for half of the sticker price like they do with everything else.

Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX using Xparent Red Tapatalk 2

kstruckcountry · March 27, 2013

The cars I've been looking at aren't priced to bad for used. IDK about trucks? Mine isn't worth nearly as much on KBB as I thought it would be. Amazing how they want so much for used vehicles, but claim yours isn't worth squat.

According to KBB my truck is worth about 3k less than what I've been seeing trucks that aren't as nice as mine go for. But I'm not selling it, so I don't really care.

Daryl LBZ · March 27, 2013

The cars I've been looking at aren't priced to bad for used. IDK about trucks? Mine isn't worth nearly as much on KBB as I thought it would be. Amazing how they want so much for used vehicles, but claim yours isn't worth squat.
According to KBB my truck is worth about 3k less than what I've been seeing trucks that aren't as nice as mine go for. But I'm not selling it, so I don't really care.

Half the time I think KBB is a joke for that reason, and a few others.