Im sorry, but it is kind of funny GM 21-NA-199

[mikeyk101]

Unfortunately it will probably be a while before I have any serious highway miles but I have been doing 30-40 miles each way at least once a week. I just did it again today. About 42⁰ outside and the trans temp stayed in the upper 140⁰ to lower 150⁰. I don't think it even got up to 154⁰. This was running 80-85mph pretty much the whole way. It's not completely flat but has very slight up and down sections all along the way.

 

Like @BlaineBug, I honestly never payed much attention to the trans temps prior to this year so I don't have any data from when ambient temps were colder before. I only started to pay attention after I got my new toyhauler and began dragging it around the Midwest starting in the spring. Before pill flip, temps went pretty high as I had posted about before. After pill flip, temps were still a bit high but stayed more reasonable. With the new 154⁰ trans thermostat, although I haven't pulled my toyhauler yet, the temps do seem to stay much lower and I haven't noticed any real ill effects to trans when it's cooler out and it takes a while to begin warming up. 

[BlaineBug]

2 hours ago, mikeyk101 said:

Unfortunately it will probably be a while before I have any serious highway miles but I have been doing 30-40 miles each way at least once a week. I just did it again today. About 42⁰ outside and the trans temp stayed in the upper 140⁰ to lower 150⁰. I don't think it even got up to 154⁰. This was running 80-85mph pretty much the whole way. It's not completely flat but has very slight up and down sections all along the way.

 

Like @BlaineBug, I honestly never payed much attention to the trans temps prior to this year so I don't have any data from when ambient temps were colder before. I only started to pay attention after I got my new toyhauler and began dragging it around the Midwest starting in the spring. Before pill flip, temps went pretty high as I had posted about before. After pill flip, temps were still a bit high but stayed more reasonable. With the new 154⁰ trans thermostat, although I haven't pulled my toyhauler yet, the temps do seem to stay much lower and I haven't noticed any real ill effects to trans when it's cooler out and it takes a while to begin warming up. 

It's of my opinion (as well as others) that thermostats are intended to ensure a minimum operating temperature range and get you there more quickly, and also to help slow the flow of fluid to ensure proper liquid to air heat transfer through radiators or other coolers.  Most likely you'll still reach the same maximum temperature regardless as once a thermostat is fully opened it doesn't matter anymore.

Having NO thermostat for engine coolant will result in not reaching temperature in the winter and also overheating in the summer due to having too quick of a flow to dissipate heat in a radiator.  A steady temperature will also not be achieved and it will vary depending on engine speed as the water pump changes flow with engine speed.

This is why I'm choosing to add the revised thermostat with a lower temperature rather than eliminate this temperature control all together.

Edited November 29, 2021 by BlaineBug

[Grumpy Bear]

11 minutes ago, BlaineBug said:

It's of my opinion (as well as others) that thermostats are intended to ensure a minimum operating temperature range and get you there more quickly, and also to help slow the flow of fluid to ensure proper liquid to air heat transfer through radiators or other coolers.  Most likely you'll still reach the same maximum temperature regardless as once a thermostat is fully opened it doesn't matter anymore.

Having NO thermostat for engine coolant will result in not reaching temperature in the winter and also overheating in the summer due to having too quick of a flow to dissipate heat in a radiator.  A steady temperature will also not be achieved and it will vary depending on engine speed as the water pump changes flow with engine speed.

This is why I'm choosing to add the revised thermostat with a lower temperature rather than eliminate this temperature control all together.

 

Where are you getting the idea ANYONE is advocating removing the water thermostat?

You're on the wrong buss.

Get off it. 

 

That is NOT what is being talked about. The TRANSMISSION thermostat is the conversation. Different device, different location, different fluid. 

 

In 2014 GM installed for the FIRST time a thermostat on the 6L80/90E for the ATF. Something that was absent in the 9 years of production of earlier 6L80/90E transmissions and their cousins the 6L45/50 units. It was NOT put there to 'speed up' the warm up. It in point of fact slowed the warm up. It was put there to RAISE the operating temperature the THIN the already thin (6 cSt) fluid for the purpose of lower internal drag and inch out a minimal MPG increase. Has nothing to do with increased reliability. Point of fact it reduces reliability to reach an OEM EPA goal. Which in point of fact it fails at miserably. The remainder of the transmission cooling system remained THE SAME or very close. It has damaged so many transmissions GM has now conceded that FACT with this new lower temperature device. Which in point of fact requires NO recalibration. Still isn't low enough. Removing the 'Pill' and plugging or Flipping the pill or installing another type of device to defeat it does nothing more than return the transmissions fluid temperature the EXACT same state it was for the preceding 9 years of production in that form. 

 

 

[BlaineBug]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Where are you getting the idea ANYONE is advocating removing the water thermostat?

You're on the wrong buss.

Get off it. 

 

That is NOT what is being talked about. The TRANSMISSION thermostat is the conversation. Different device, different location, different fluid. 

 

In 2014 GM installed for the FIRST time a thermostat on the 6L80/90E for the ATF. Something that was absent in the 9 years of production of earlier 6L80/90E transmissions and their cousins the 6L45/50 units. It was NOT put there to 'speed up' the warm up. It in point of fact slowed the warm up. It was put there to RAISE the operating temperature the THIN the already thin (6 cSt) fluid for the purpose of lower internal drag and inch out a minimal MPG increase. Has nothing to do with increased reliability. Point of fact it reduces reliability to reach an OEM EPA goal. Which in point of fact it fails at miserably. The remainder of the transmission cooling system remained THE SAME or very close. It has damaged so many transmissions GM has now conceded that FACT with this new lower temperature device. Which in point of fact requires NO recalibration. Still isn't low enough. Removing the 'Pill' and plugging or Flipping the pill or installing another type of device to defeat it does nothing more than return the transmissions fluid temperature the EXACT same state it was for the preceding 9 years of production in that form. 

 

 

Fluid to air heat transfer applies to any fluid be it water/coolant or oil.

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, BlaineBug said:

Fluid to air heat transfer applies to any fluid be it water/coolant or oil.

 

 

You read to many cereal boxes.

 

My truck came with a 207 F water stat. It ran 210-215 F.

I installed a 170 F water stat. It runs 173 F

 

I ran the Factory trans stat of 194 F and it ran 215 to 225 F

Flipped the pill and it runs:

Between 110 F and 160 F depending on air temperature and load/speed

 

 

 

Three years data collection of multiple data points per degree. 

 

 

If you run pump inlet into pump outlet and bypass the radiator it will burn down no matter what thermostat you put in it or how fast or slow you pump the coolant. If you use the ocean as the radiator it will never reach any temperature higher than the pools temperature BUT if you use a thermostat it will reach the 'cracking temperature' plus a degree or two. What is my point? Peak temperature is set by the rejection rate of the radiator or fin fan exchanger as you seem to be more familiar with and regulated by the thermostat. You could be running that motor in the seventh level of Donte's Hell and not overheat it with an infinite heat sink and a well designed pump. I expect the engineer that sized the pump knew a thing or two about pump size and flow rates. 

 

You read a story in a car rag where someone overheated a motor removing the thermostat. Was this true? Yep. But the motor was NOT being used as designed nor within its designs range.

 

I wore shoes today and the sun came up. 

My shoes have nothing to do with the sunrise.

Correlation is NOT causation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BlaineBug]

10 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

 

You read to many cereal boxes.

 

My truck came with a 207 F water stat. It ran 210-215 F.

I installed a 170 F water stat. It runs 173 F

 

I ran the Factory trans stat of 194 F and it ran 215 to 225 F

Flipped the pill and it runs:

Between 110 F and 160 F depending on air temperature and load/speed

 

 

 

Three years data collection of multiple data points per degree. 

 

 

If you run pump inlet into pump outlet and bypass the radiator it will burn down no matter what thermostat you put in it or how fast or slow you pump the coolant. If you use the ocean as the radiator it will never reach any temperature higher than the pools temperature BUT if you use a thermostat it will reach the 'cracking temperature' plus a degree or two. What is my point? Peak temperature is set by the rejection rate of the radiator or fin fan exchanger as you seem to be more familiar with and regulated by the thermostat. You could be running that motor in the seventh level of Donte's Hell and not overheat it with an infinite heat sink and a well designed pump. I expect the engineer that sized the pump knew a thing or two about pump size and flow rates. 

 

You read a story in a car rag where someone overheated a motor removing the thermostat. Was this true? Yep. But the motor was NOT being used as designed nor within its designs range.

 

I wore shoes today and the sun came up. 

My shoes have nothing to do with the sunrise.

Correlation is NOT causation.

 I don't read fancy car magazines or rags.  Everything that I have learned has come from conversations with real people and my personal experiences as well.

Edited November 29, 2021 by BlaineBug

[Grumpy Bear]

On 11/29/2021 at 9:55 AM, BlaineBug said:

 I don't read fancy car magazines or rags.  Everything that I have learned has come from conversations with real people and my personal experiences as well.

 

 

Okay Well...last time I checked I'm a real people. Pepper is a real truck. Those were real results of real tests in a real world. I really worked in oil/gas and chemical for a real 40 years and son..... I really taught it as well. Heat exchangers are a HUGE part of refining. Exchangers are  one of the real classes use to teach real operators by real teachers who were trained by the API of whom I'm one.  Is that REAL enough for ya? 

 

There's nothing wrong with your basic premise. It's your conclusions..... You have a perfectly packed parachute you are not pulling the cord. 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Grumpy Bear

[Epsilon Plus]

On 11/27/2021 at 6:11 PM, BlaineBug said:

 

This is what my 2022 6L90E stat looks like on my 11/21 built 2500 HD. The 70 stamp and all.

 

I saw somewhere back that the HDs didn't used to have a stat.

 

Guess what...

[BlaineBug]

1 hour ago, Epsilon Plus said:

 

This is what my 2022 6L90E stat looks like on my 11/21 built 2500 HD. The 70 stamp and all.

 

I saw somewhere back that the HDs didn't used to have a stat.

 

Guess what...

Good info!

[2015 High Miler]

I’m trying to understand something that keeps being said. 
 

 

I’ve seen it posted more than once on this thread that no ‘stat can cause over heating due to not keeping the fluid in the cooler long enough.  How would a ‘stat help an engine that is too hot?  Once it hits the opening temp, it can’t slow down the water by closing because the heat already hs it wide open.  

[2015 High Miler]

On 12/1/2021 at 3:46 PM, Epsilon Plus said:

 

This is what my 2022 6L90E stat looks like on my 11/21 built 2500 HD. The 70 stamp and all.

 

I saw somewhere back that the HDs didn't used to have a stat.

 

Guess what...

Apparently, GM figured out the cooler stat worked and added it to your new truck, just as they did to other year trucks.  I’m sure the heavier loads expected with a 2500 kept them from doing it previously. 
 

Wish I had known about this trans trick prior to replacing my trans at 119,000 miles for $5000.  Now I’m at 218,000 and hope it’s not too late to flip it or add the bypass pill. My truck trans runs at 195 at 55 or 95 mph.  

Edited December 3, 2021 by 2015 High Miler

[BlaineBug]

1 hour ago, 2015 High Miler said:

I’m trying to understand something that keeps being said. 
 

 

I’ve seen it posted more than once on this thread that no ‘stat can cause over heating due to not keeping the fluid in the cooler long enough.  How would a ‘stat help an engine that is too hot?  Once it hits the opening temp, it can’t slow down the water by closing because the heat already hs it wide open.  

The coolant can flow too fast and not have enough time to transfer and dissipate the heat to the metallic radiator.  In the automotive world especially with older vehicles, removing a thermostat was considered poor for this very reason.  I've also seen flow restrictors sold that one could essentially replace a thermostat with, which is essentially a big washer of the same diameter of the original thermostat, but with a hole of some diameter drilled in the center which still allows flow, but not full flow as if no thermostat and no flow restrictor were installed otherwise.

Read here if you wish;  http://gojeep.willyshotrod.com/HowtoRadiatorRestrictor.htm

Edited December 3, 2021 by BlaineBug

[BlaineBug]

1 hour ago, 2015 High Miler said:

Apparently, GM figured out the cooler stat worked and added it to your new truck, just as they did to other year trucks.  I’m sure the heavier loads expected with a 2500 kept them from doing it previously. 
 

Wish I had known about this trans trick prior to replacing my trans at 119,000 miles for $5000.  Now I’m at 218,000 and hope it’s not too late to flip it or add the bypass pill. My truck trans runs at 195 at 55 or 95 mph.  

Changing your fluid regularly every ~50,000 miles will net you the biggest advantage for longevity as more frequent maintenance is always key, and neglect normally results in premature failures whatever the "item" may be.  And you can swap in the lower temperature "revised" thermostat if you'd like as well.

Edited December 3, 2021 by BlaineBug

[16LT4]

With 4-5k logged miles since the pill-flip, mark me down for another that saw not only cooler overall temperatures, but quicker warm up, as well.

 

I run an external ATF cooler on my 442 which completely bypasses the radiator's heat exchanger (so no liquid-liquid heat transfer), and that "weak" 2004-r has survived at least 140k miles of abuse behind a series of engines larger and stronger than the stock motor.  Still shifts better than any 6L-90, too.  

[BlaineBug]

2 hours ago, 16LT4 said:

With 4-5k logged miles since the pill-flip, mark me down for another that saw not only cooler overall temperatures, but quicker warm up, as well.

 

I run an external ATF cooler on my 442 which completely bypasses the radiator's heat exchanger (so no liquid-liquid heat transfer), and that "weak" 2004-r has survived at least 140k miles of abuse behind a series of engines larger and stronger than the stock motor.  Still shifts better than any 6L-90, too.  

I haven't had a chance to install my lower temperature "revised" transmission thermostat yet, however I can't see how you'd experience both lower operating temperature and faster warm up simultaneously.  Your trans fluid is being exposed to the same ~210 degree engine coolant either way.

Regardless, someone above asked if I could detail what my operating temps are with the old style thermostat.  I just returned from a 90-120 minute trip in city traffic non-highway.  When returning home the cluster read the transmission temperature at 189 degrees.  Engine coolant temp reading centered at approximately ~210 degrees.  The outdoor ambient temperature is currently at 51 degrees.

Edited December 3, 2021 by BlaineBug