Oil catch can?

[thetruck454]

I remember a friend's TDI jetta having to have this done back around 2000 and I thought it was ridiculous. Looks like it may become more common place as everything switches to direct injection.

[Crf450r420]

Besides reducing the rate of build up on the intake valve that will reduce the air flow into the cylinder and reduce the power the motor can make. The oil in the chamber increase the chance of the motor going into detonation which will cause added wear for short moment before the ECU pulls timing which again reduces power. I wonder how much of the detonation issues turners are having with the 87 octane tune on the 5.3L has to do with the amount of oil in the chamber.

[Crf450r420]

Supercharging with extra injectors mounting high in the intake to make up for the need fuel passed the ability of the direct injection pump will fix the issue. It will again put fuel on the back of the intake valves and clean them as has been doing for all the none Direct Injection motors. I already wanted to supercharge or turbo charge and now I have a great reason to do it. hehe

[Flying Tomatoes]

Besides reducing the rate of build up on the intake valve that will reduce the air flow into the cylinder and reduce the power the motor can make. The oil in the chamber increase the chance of the motor going into detonation which will cause added wear for short moment before the ECU pulls timing which again reduces power. I wonder how much of the detonation issues turners are having with the 87 octane tune on the 5.3L has to do with the amount of oil in the chamber.

 

Has it been proven that this is actually happening? People have claimed this for years and I have still never seen any proof.

 

The other one I hear is "a chunk of carbon could fall off the valve and score your cylinder walls". Again... Never ever seen it.

 

The worst I have seen with the euro cars that have been running this tech for years and years is the valves gum up to the point that they don't fully open and close. At that point you obviously get a service engine code usually paired with rough idle. I've seen more then a few cars show these symptoms and then be manually cleaned with great results and zero issues post cleaning.

[Silverado-Hareek]

 

I'm not denying carbon build up. I'm saying carbon build up isnt that big a deal. It robs power for sure but like I said its part of the package with all these direct injection motors. They have had this issue for 7-8 years. Trust me, I know. Ive had my Audi "carbon cleaned" 3 times in 4 years and it costs about 800$ each time. I consider it cost of ownership. The only way to do it is open the motor up and scrub the valves manually or with a walnut blaster. Catch can does nothing, cleaners do nothing, its been proven over and over and over. Its just now that the domestic companies are starting to use this technology more frequently these debates are starting to come back up again.

 

My Audi at its first carbon cleaning, just for reference:

 

 

Carbon build up on your valves is a big deal and will cause problems with your engine. Oil catch cans will reduce that build up and prolong engine life. Diesel engines have had catch cans for years for this very reason. The only reason catch cans aren't stock on these cars and trucks is because the problem won't manifest as fast on a gas engine (think power train warranty) than on a Diesel engine and manufacturers are looking to save money on the initial manufacturing cost and make money off of you bringing it in for cleaning services over the life of the vehicle. Also, yes cleaning agents do work and mechanical cleaning methods are becoming a thing of the past with proper routing cleaning maintenance. Google BG induction service and see the results for yourself.

 

Yes cleaning Is becoming a cost of ownership and routine maintenance item for DI engines but again, an oil catch can will dramatically reduce the build up on your valves and prolong engine life. There is a ton of research out there to support this.

 

 

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Edited December 24, 2014 by Silverado-Hareek

[Flying Tomatoes]

Carbon build up on your valves is a big deal and will cause problems with your engine. Oil catch cans will reduce that build up and prolong engine life.

 

Problems such as? Please elaborate.

 

Reduce build up. Reduce being the key word. This isn't a SOLUTION its a band-aid.

 

There are many DI platforms how ever where these catch cans do catch oil but do not affect the amount of build up on the valves at all. Its been proven over and over again for many years. You cant argue the data, lol.

[Crf450r420]

 

Has it been proven that this is actually happening? People have claimed this for years and I have still never seen any proof.

 

The other one I hear is "a chunk of carbon could fall off the valve and score your cylinder walls". Again... Never ever seen it.

 

The worst I have seen with the euro cars that have been running this tech for years and years is the valves gum up to the point that they don't fully open and close. At that point you obviously get a service engine code usually paired with rough idle. I've seen more then a few cars show these symptoms and then be manually cleaned with great results and zero issues post cleaning.

Prove which part? You proved the build up and admit to hanging valves which will no doubt reduce power. All though it is reducing power before then just not nearly as much. If it doesn't hold it open far enough to become part of the piston and cause a blown motor it will stop that hole from firing from lackof compression.

 

The oil causing detonation is why we don't connect the crank case to any performance or race motors we build. If the sanctioning body of that race series doesn't require it you wont find one motor crank connected to intake.

 

If you are wanting to know where the carbon comes from, it's from the burnt oil and gas. So you are right it will still happen at a slower rate though since the oil won't travel down the intake to the back of the hot valve and start to bake on to the back of it. Even though these motors have week cams and very little over lap from the large lobe seperation angle in the cam it will still have some reversion and that will also lead to build up.

 

The only fix is fuel hitting the back of the valve, but for $200 you can down on you $800 cleaning bill and clean less or clean the same and keep more power. You can also no run one. It's your call.

[Silverado-Hareek]

 

Problems such as? Please elaborate.

 

Reduce build up. Reduce being the key word. This isn't a SOLUTION its a band-aid.

 

There are many DI platforms how ever where these catch cans do catch oil but do not affect the amount of build up on the valves at all. Its been proven over and over again for many years. You cant argue the data, lol.

Um sticking valves? Valves not closing properly because of the buildup? Blown engines over time? It's not a "band aid" a band aid is half assed repair. The catch can is simply an upgrade to reduce buildup on your valves. You need to do some more research on this issue my friend.

 

 

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Edited December 24, 2014 by Silverado-Hareek

[Silverado-Hareek]

Prove which part? You proved the build up and admit to hanging valves which will no doubt reduce power. All though it is reducing power before then just not nearly as much. If it doesn't hold it open far enough to become part of the piston and cause a blown motor it will stop that hole from firing from lackof compression.

 

The oil causing detonation is why we don't connect the crank case to any performance or race motors we build. If the sanctioning body of that race series doesn't require it you wont find one motor crank connected to intake.

 

If you are wanting to know where the carbon comes from, it's from the burnt oil and gas. So you are right it will still happen at a slower rate though since the oil won't travel down the intake to the back of the hot valve and start to bake on to the back of it. Even though these motors have week cams and very little over lap from the large lobe seperation angle in the cam it will still have some reversion and that will also lead to build up.

 

The only fix is fuel hitting the back of the valve, but for $200 you can down on you $800 cleaning bill and clean less or clean the same and keep more power. You can also no run one. It's your call.

This. You phrased it much better than me.

 

Also the reason it's $800 to clean your Audi flying tomatoes is because the Audi is probably the worst DI engine on the market for carbon buildup on the valves and you're paying a ton in labor to break the engine down to clean it mechanically. Modern chemical cleaning methods do pretty much the same job for a fraction of the cost. It cost $160 to do the BG induction service on my wife's Hyundai. I'm guessing it will be closer to $200 on these trucks because of more supplies needed for the larger engine.

 

 

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[Flying Tomatoes]

Prove which part? You proved the build up and admit to hanging valves which will no doubt reduce power. All though it is reducing power before then just not nearly as much. If it doesn't hold it open far enough to become part of the piston and cause a blown motor it will stop that hole from firing from lackof compression.

 

The oil causing detonation is why we don't connect the crank case to any performance or race motors we build. If the sanctioning body of that race series doesn't require it you wont find one motor crank connected to intake.

 

I understand the mechanics behind it all. I'm just saying I've never found a single case of a motor blowing up due to carbon in my years of research. To me that means it doesn't happen. If all this carbon was really causing blown motors they would have revised the design for all of the millions of cars a year sold with this technology.

The only fix is fuel hitting the back of the valve, but for $200 you can down on you $800 cleaning bill and clean less or clean the same and keep more power. You can also no run one. It's your call.

 

Exactly. The only real fix (at this time) is adding an auxiliary injector. Many manufacturers have started doing this already.

 

Um sticking valves? Valves not closing properly because of the buildup? Blown engines over time? It's not a "band aid" a band aid is half assed repair. The catch can is simply an upgrade to reduce buildup on your valves. You need to do some more research on this issue my friend.

 

I don't think I've ever seen one report of "sticking". They might not have a full ROM but again that's not going to "blow your engine".

 

IMO a catch can is a "half assed", as you say, preventative measure. It's doing something (maybe), but its definitely not a solution to the design flaw and I've spent hours and hours of research on this issue 'my friend'.

 

I'm not trying to start arguments here, I'm simply saying that carbon build up isn't the end of the world and your truck is going to be fine, catch can or not.

[Silverado-Hareek]

 

I understand the mechanics behind it all. I'm just saying I've never found a single case of a motor blowing up due to carbon in my years of research. To me that means it doesn't happen. If all this carbon was really causing blown motors they would have revised the design for all of the millions of cars a year sold with this technology.

 

 

 

Exactly. The only real fix (at this time) is adding an auxiliary injector. Many manufacturers have started doing this already.

 

 

I don't think I've ever seen one report of "sticking". They might not have a full ROM but again that's not going to "blow your engine".

 

IMO a catch can is a "half assed", as you say, preventative measure. It's doing something (maybe), but its definitely not a solution to the design flaw and I've spent hours and hours of research on this issue 'my friend'.

 

I'm not trying to start arguments here, I'm simply saying that carbon build up isn't the end of the world and your truck is going to be fine, catch can or not.

And we're saying your truck will be MORE fine with a catch can, you'll have reduced maintenance costs, and you'll have better performance. Neither of us are technically wrong. We're choosing to spend some money to make things better. Do what you like but to say a catch can won't reduce buildup on the valves is completely false. How much is debatable as there aren't many before and after studies done. But I will be glad to report my findinings over the next couple years. I put a catch can on around 12k miles. I plan to get my mechanic to bore scope my valves at 15k, do a BG induction service, then bore scope them again to see how clean they got. At 30k miles I will bore scope the engine again to see if there's less buildup than at 15k and exactly how much is there at 30k. That will show how much the catch can is helping. If it's not helping I'll gladly admit it. But at this point, logically, it makes sense and there's enough supporting information out there to warrant the $200 investment.

 

 

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Edited December 24, 2014 by Silverado-Hareek

[Jon A]

 

IMO a catch can is a "half assed", as you say, preventative measure. It's doing something (maybe), but its definitely not a solution to the design flaw and I've spent hours and hours of research on this issue 'my friend'.

 

So what benefit has your research found from allowing the engine to ingest 5-10 quarts of oil through those intake valves over the course of 100K miles? Why would you want this to happen?

[Oldjock]

"Flying Tomatoes" Good luck with your 6.2 L if you plan to hang on to it. As for me, I'm keeping this truck for ten years. Cost of my Norris can with shipping was $120. Self installed, cost zero. Cost over ten years is $12. per year. I'm more than willing to pay that little for peace of mind. By the way, the amount of fluids caught in the can is very surprising.

[Crf450r420]

 

I understand the mechanics behind it all. I'm just saying I've never found a single case of a motor blowing up due to carbon in my years of research. To me that means it doesn't happen. If all this carbon was really causing blown motors they would have revised the design for all of the millions of cars a year sold with this technology.

 

Exactly. The only real fix (at this time) is adding an auxiliary injector. Many manufacturers have started doing this already.

 

 

I don't think I've ever seen one report of "sticking". They might not have a full ROM but again that's not going to "blow your engine".

 

IMO a catch can is a "half assed", as you say, preventative measure. It's doing something (maybe), but its definitely not a solution to the design flaw and I've spent hours and hours of research on this issue 'my friend'.

 

I'm not trying to start arguments here, I'm simply saying that carbon build up isn't the end of the world and your truck is going to be fine, catch can or not.

First, understanding and knowing mechanics are two different things. You can read your entire life about and not know what people doing for 10 years know. Next, I didn't say they were blowing up. I said that a hanging valve on an interference motor can blow it up and since they don't make 8:1 compression motors anymore, they are all interference. That means if the valve doesn't close the piston will hit it. Also, known as piston to valve clearance. Something you must set on every race motor with big cam and high compression. If your logic was right then they wouldn't make motors with timing belts anymore because when they fail the motor blows up and yet they still do because if you stay on top of it and every 100,000 miles maintain it there is no issue. Timing chains can last 100,000 on one motor and 500,000 on another. Factors being length, load do to how much they must remotely turn, and oiling. Many that fail early are because of small oil passages and issues with such.

 

Valve without full range of motion can mean two things it's stuck closed and that means parts will break when they try to move it. No way around it. Or, it is not closing all the way. This will mean if it isn't hit by the piston it's a none working cylinder since it will not have the compression needed to make the air/fuel mixture volatile enough to ignite from the spark. This will then put extra oxygen in the exhaust system and make the computer add more fuel to correct a false lean condition. Causing even more power lose. It will cause a vibration in the motor and the cylinder will start to have oil come into it passed the rings since the normal loads are not seen on the rings anymore. There are more things, but dinner is done.

 

You are welcome to keep it stock and burn the oil. No one here is forcing anyone one to run a can. They are simply putting up facts as to why many choose to run them. If you don't get it or don't see the need for it you don't have to run one. Just like nobody on here is giving me crap for running 20's with street tires and not jacking my truck up to run 35" tires.

 

Now if your research involved tearing down DI motors on a regular basis for service or you worked in the form of service at all to see conflicting results, please bring your real life knowledge forward. Heck did you ever dyno your Audi new, then just before a cleaning, and then right after it to prove we are full of it? Because I can tell you for a fact when I build someone that had a 500HP motor a new 600HP motor they never feel the power that they dyno reads.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Crf450r420

[RyanbabZ71]

Well worth it imo

 

 

 

Ryan