Oil catch can?

[Jsdirt]

Looks like I've made the right choice on steering clear of any DI engines. I'll just run & rebuild my old junk until I stop breathing.

 

An interesting carbon story ...

 

I had someone bring me a generator they thought was seized one time. I could rotate the engine 350° in each direction, but it would not reach TDC. I figured someone dropped something in the combustion chamber when they had the plug out. Was a side valve, so no chance of a valve dropping inside. When I got the head off, I found deposits all the way around the edge of the piston crown nearly 1/4" thick! First time I'd ever seen that happen. Guess the guy rarely ran it, and when he did, it ran on stale, cheap fuel.

 

Lesson learned!

[Jimmy W]

??

[HondaHawkGT]

I have an Elite can and still plan on regular CRC cleanings. It made an enormous improvement. I believe Elite makes a good can but with the volatility of most 0W-20 oils, there will always be plenty of oil being pulled by it. Ford warns against intake cleaners ONLY on Ecoboost engines because the carbon that broke free was going into the turbos and causing failures. Our cats are screwed one way or another with all the oil being pulled through the engine anyways.

 

The vast majority of buildup is caused by "granny-ing" the engine anyways There are plenty of VW/Audi DI engines that were surprisingly clean for the mileage and in those cases the owner's either drove it like they stole it most of the time or they intentionally drove their car at elevated RPM's to de-carbon their intakes.

[jrob56]

Looks like I've made the right choice on steering clear of any DI engines. I'll just run & rebuild my old junk until I stop breathing.

 

An interesting carbon story ...

 

I had someone bring me a generator they thought was seized one time. I could rotate the engine 350° in each direction, but it would not reach TDC. I figured someone dropped something in the combustion chamber when they had the plug out. Was a side valve, so no chance of a valve dropping inside. When I got the head off, I found deposits all the way around the edge of the piston crown nearly 1/4" thick! First time I'd ever seen that happen. Guess the guy rarely ran it, and when he did, it ran on stale, cheap fuel.

 

Lesson learned!

[Silverado-Hareek]

Some very good information posted from GDI. Thank you for the input. I heard from Tracy at RX the same sentiments about using cleaners like BG and CRC, etc. However, my personal opinion (as non-mechanic that just reads stuff on the internet) is that the serious problems caused by loose deposits after using these cleaners happen when people use them for the first time after high mileage. BG offers a $4,000 warranty for your engine if you use their system within the the first 15,000 miles and within every 15,000 mile interval after that for as long as you own the vehicle. Let's be honest about warranties: they're like casinos where the odds are in the house's favor. BG can offer this warranty because they've likely done studies that prove using it early and often and does not harm the engine because you never allow a big amount of deposits to build up, thus they don't have to spend any money to fix your engine. Throw a catch can into the mix and your engine is even more protected and spotless when you use a combination of the 2. In my opinion, these cleaners are safe but only if you use them early and often, which GDI stated. Although they stated using it within the first 5,000 miles but I think based on BG's offerings that the safe limit is 15,000 miles and they've likely built a factor of safety into that as well so they're not offering a warranty and cutting it real close to the mileage limit. You're probably safe to do it within 20,000 or 25,000 miles but they'll say 15,000 to definitely protect themselves and sell more product.

 

With that being said, BG makes no mention of a warranty for your exhaust system and catalytic converters. Those could potentially be getting clogged up from the process regardless of when you do the cleanings but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Silverado-Hareek

[GDI Tech]

Excellent to show this Jsdirt. Most never have torn an engine down to see just what long term effects are. That engine would have benefited from a CRC/BG/Seafoam treatment or 5 over its life! And the owner had a far cheaper bill for the repairs.

I have an Elite can and still plan on regular CRC cleanings. It made an enormous improvement. I believe Elite makes a good can but with the volatility of most 0W-20 oils, there will always be plenty of oil being pulled by it. Ford warns against intake cleaners ONLY on Ecoboost engines because the carbon that broke free was going into the turbos and causing failures. Our cats are screwed one way or another with all the oil being pulled through the engine anyways.

 

The vast majority of buildup is caused by "granny-ing" the engine anyways There are plenty of VW/Audi DI engines that were surprisingly clean for the mileage and in those cases the owner's either drove it like they stole it most of the time or they intentionally drove their car at elevated RPM's to de-carbon their intakes.

 

Oil does make a difference.

 

Any Dexos blend will coking at a faster rate than a pure full synthetic. I also agree it appears in our research vehicles driven hard have less at the same mileage of those babied.

 

On VW/Audi, I have to disagree, They are among the worst offenders as this link will show. These are pics posted by techs from all over the world and every auto maker you can imaginge:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=intake+valve+coking+Direct+Injection&newwindow=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMI5s-Ao5iLyQIVzComCh3_CwNL&biw=1600&bih=775

 

http://www.bmwfanatics.co.za/showthread.php?tid=38980

 

And some great videos of cleanings:

 

 

 

 

The wear to the valve guides is what is constantly occurring as long as any deposits are on the stem and being cycled up into the guides.

 

Elite makes absolutely the best PCV air/oil separating systems out there period IMHO.

 

A little background, I work for a R&D firm that specializes in GDI (since 2008) and this is the main focus of what we do. Studying all makes/models, etc. Am a member of SAE (International Society of Automotive Engineers) and participate in industry discussions and studies on a regular basis.

 

And the latest Elite E2-X series you can test against any other "catchcan" out there. SImply install one as in the 3 month test done by upr I posted. Place the E2-X inline AFTER any can and see what it captures that the first inline can let pass through, then do it in reverse to be fair and equal.

 

Really an eye opener.

 

 

[GDI Tech]

Looks like I've made the right choice on steering clear of any DI engines. I'll just run & rebuild my old junk until I stop breathing.

 

An interesting carbon story ...

 

I had someone bring me a generator they thought was seized one time. I could rotate the engine 350° in each direction, but it would not reach TDC. I figured someone dropped something in the combustion chamber when they had the plug out. Was a side valve, so no chance of a valve dropping inside. When I got the head off, I found deposits all the way around the edge of the piston crown nearly 1/4" thick! First time I'd ever seen that happen. Guess the guy rarely ran it, and when he did, it ran on stale, cheap fuel.

 

Lesson learned!

Excellent to show this Jsdirt. Most never have torn an engine down to see just what long term effects are. That engine would have benefited from a CRC/BG/Seafoam treatment or 5 over its life! And the owner had a far cheaper bill for the repairs.

 

I have an Elite can and still plan on regular CRC cleanings. It made an enormous improvement. I believe Elite makes a good can but with the volatility of most 0W-20 oils, there will always be plenty of oil being pulled by it. Ford warns against intake cleaners ONLY on Ecoboost engines because the carbon that broke free was going into the turbos and causing failures. Our cats are screwed one way or another with all the oil being pulled through the engine anyways.

 

The vast majority of buildup is caused by "granny-ing" the engine anyways There are plenty of VW/Audi DI engines that were surprisingly clean for the mileage and in those cases the owner's either drove it like they stole it most of the time or they intentionally drove their car at elevated RPM's to de-carbon their intakes.

 

 

Oil does make a difference.

 

Any Dexos blend will coking at a faster rate than a pure full synthetic. I also agree it appears in our research vehicles driven hard have less at the same mileage of those babied.

 

On VW/Audi, I have to disagree, They are among the worst offenders as this link will show. These are pics posted by techs from all over the world and every auto maker you can imaginge:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=intake+valve+coking+Direct+Injection&newwindow=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMI5s-Ao5iLyQIVzComCh3_CwNL&biw=1600&bih=775

 

http://www.bmwfanatics.co.za/showthread.php?tid=38980

 

And some great videos of cleanings:

 

 

 

 

The wear to the valve guides is what is constantly occurring as long as any deposits are on the stem and being cycled up into the guides.

 

Elite makes absolutely the best PCV air/oil separating systems out there period IMHO.

 

A little background, I work for a R&D firm that specializes in GDI (since 2008) and this is the main focus of what we do. Studying all makes/models, etc. Am a member of SAE (International Society of Automotive Engineers) and participate in industry discussions and studies on a regular basis.

 

And the latest Elite E2-X series you can test against any other "catchcan" out there. SImply install one as in the 3 month test done by upr I posted. Place the E2-X inline AFTER any can and see what it captures that the first inline can let pass through, then do it in reverse to be fair and equal.

 

Really an eye opener.

 

 

Looks like I've made the right choice on steering clear of any DI engines. I'll just run & rebuild my old junk until I stop breathing.

 

An interesting carbon story ...

 

I had someone bring me a generator they thought was seized one time. I could rotate the engine 350° in each direction, but it would not reach TDC. I figured someone dropped something in the combustion chamber when they had the plug out. Was a side valve, so no chance of a valve dropping inside. When I got the head off, I found deposits all the way around the edge of the piston crown nearly 1/4" thick! First time I'd ever seen that happen. Guess the guy rarely ran it, and when he did, it ran on stale, cheap fuel.

 

Lesson learned!

Excellent to show this Jsdirt. Most never have torn an engine down to see just what long term effects are. That engine would have benefited from a CRC/BG/Seafoam treatment or 5 over its life! And the owner had a far cheaper bill for the repairs.

 

I have an Elite can and still plan on regular CRC cleanings. It made an enormous improvement. I believe Elite makes a good can but with the volatility of most 0W-20 oils, there will always be plenty of oil being pulled by it. Ford warns against intake cleaners ONLY on Ecoboost engines because the carbon that broke free was going into the turbos and causing failures. Our cats are screwed one way or another with all the oil being pulled through the engine anyways.

 

The vast majority of buildup is caused by "granny-ing" the engine anyways There are plenty of VW/Audi DI engines that were surprisingly clean for the mileage and in those cases the owner's either drove it like they stole it most of the time or they intentionally drove their car at elevated RPM's to de-carbon their intakes.

 

 

Oil does make a difference.

 

Any Dexos blend will coking at a faster rate than a pure full synthetic. I also agree it appears in our research vehicles driven hard have less at the same mileage of those babied.

 

On VW/Audi, I have to disagree, They are among the worst offenders as this link will show. These are pics posted by techs from all over the world and every auto maker you can imaginge:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=intake+valve+coking+Direct+Injection&newwindow=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMI5s-Ao5iLyQIVzComCh3_CwNL&biw=1600&bih=775

 

http://www.bmwfanatics.co.za/showthread.php?tid=38980

 

And some great videos of cleanings:

 

 

 

 

The wear to the valve guides is what is constantly occurring as long as any deposits are on the stem and being cycled up into the guides.

 

Elite makes absolutely the best PCV air/oil separating systems out there period IMHO.

 

A little background, I work for a R&D firm that specializes in GDI (since 2008) and this is the main focus of what we do. Studying all makes/models, etc. Am a member of SAE (International Society of Automotive Engineers) and participate in industry discussions and studies on a regular basis.

 

And the latest Elite E2-X series you can test against any other "catchcan" out there. SImply install one as in the 3 month test done by upr I posted. Place the E2-X inline AFTER any can and see what it captures that the first inline can let pass through, then do it in reverse to be fair and equal.

 

Really an eye opener.

 

 

[HondaHawkGT]

Wasn't claiming that Audi/VW has solved the carbon issue. They have a horrible carbon buildup issue.

 

http://jalopnik.com/this-is-what-happens-when-you-dont-drive-your-v10-audi-1691976274

 

Pretty shocking.

 

What I meant was, even with how bad an Audi or VW will carbon up, driving habits make a big difference. Some Audi's I've seen were a whole magnitude cleaner than what would be considered normal for those particular models and the driver was known for driving it hard. Once of the procedures VW has given to service techs for cleaning carbon out is to take get the engine to operating temp, take the car out and driving it at elevated RPM, approximately 3000 RPM for 15 to 20 minutes.

 

http://www.google.com/patents/US6866031?printsec=description&dq=valve+coating+carbon+VW

 

"An additional approach for reducing the formation of carbon deposits on the intake valves is to increase the intake valve temperature, at least temporarily, since, surprisingly, it was found that any carbon deposits possibly present are removed at temperatures above 380° C. To this end, the intake valve unit, which comprises, among other components, the intake valves and the valve stem guide, is designed with means that hinder heat dissipation in such a way that increased surface temperatures of more than 380° C. develop at least in the area of the neck of the intake valves in at least one predetermined region of the load characteristic diagram of the internal combustion engine. The intake valve temperature is above 380° C. in the shaded region 112 b of the characteristic diagram. At these temperatures, carbon deposits on the intake valves are removed. This region of the characteristic diagram occurs, for example, at speeds over 3,000 rpm, and in that speed range extends essentially to full load. Even if the internal combustion engine is not operated most of the time in the region during normal driving operation of a motor vehicle, nevertheless, carbon deposits that could adversely affect the operation of the internal combustion engine cannot build up, since their removal occurs very quickly. For example, operation of the internal combustion engine in this region for a period of, for example, 20 min., is sufficient to remove even a thick layer of carbon deposits. In other words, a routine expressway trip cleans the intake valves sufficiently. "

[GDI Tech]

Got it. Yes, all have the issues, and all so far following any of the claims on multiple fueling events, hot valves (the valves on GDI engines run many times hotter than port injection), etc. have shown very minor results when actually studied as we do for several companies (including one that makes the solvents) and to date, the only things that can be done is to eliminate the source with the proper system like the Elite E2-X, and you are also correct on hard driving seems to reduce the rate of build-up. Hot valves, etc. show worse deposits though in real life. Multiple fuel events show little effect, and in tank additives zero. Audi's adding small port injectors has also shown minimal effect on correcting this, but a side effect is the fuel present during both the entire intake and compression stroke has increased the incidence of detonation going backwards some.

 

You are already doing the best you can it sounds like. And we have shown full syn oils like Amsoil produce less as well so your right on there.

 

The real point I want to make is "catchcans" as a whole do so little as almost all let more oil and other compounds past them to still be ingested that it is so confusing for the consumer.

 

Cheers!

[mjj]

So I know it was mentioned that fuel additives etc do not play a big role in helping the ports etc stay clean. What about E85/ethanol. It being a cleaner fuel and burning at a cooler temp make any difference?

[patriot]

So I know it was mentioned that fuel additives etc do not play a big role in helping the ports etc stay clean. What about E85/ethanol. It being a cleaner fuel and burning at a cooler temp make any difference?

It won't help the back side of the valves. That part never gets washed with fuel on a DI engine.

A water/meth setup might do the trick.

[HondaHawkGT]

 

 

Catch can in action for those that are curious what's going on in your PCV system. You can see that on agressive downshifts it really started to pull oil in. Imagine what our trucks are doing when you have the cruise control set and go down a hill. Hill descent control kicks in and starts downshifting. You're pulling a ton of oil into your intake.

Edited November 12, 2015 by HondaHawkGT

[mjj]

So I know it was mentioned that fuel additives etc do not play a big role in helping the ports etc stay clean. What about E85/ethanol. It being a cleaner fuel and burning at a cooler temp make any difference?

First off this thread has exploded lately and wow what a monster post by GDI Tech, a long read but much appreciated.

 

Let me re-ask my question(s).

1. Where do a majority of the contaminants in the oil come from? Outside air (dirt & dust particles) or leftovers (unburnt fuel etc) from the combustion process?

 

2. So then what is the major source of the deposits left on the valves? The oil itself or the contaminants in the oil?

 

3. Does dirtier oil produce more deposits on the valves? If so is more frequent oil changes better?

 

4. There was mention of using synthetic oil and that it does not collect/produce deposits on the valves as much as a blended oil. Why is this? Does synthetic oil somehow hold contaminants better?

 

And then back to my original question, if ethanol burns cleaner that would mean less contaminants in the oil correct? But not knowing the answers to my above question is this better for less deposits?

 

I see the benefit of a good catch can like the E2-X for prohibiting oil from ever getting back to the valves but do the other items also have a benefit in regards to less deposit build up?

 

Sorry lots of questions.

[sdeeter19555]

First off this thread has exploded lately and wow what a monster post by GDI Tech, a long read but much appreciated.

 

Let me re-ask my question(s).

1. Where do a majority of the contaminants in the oil come from? Outside air (dirt & dust particles) or leftovers (unburnt fuel etc) from the combustion process?

 

2. So then what is the major source of the deposits left on the valves? The oil itself or the contaminants in the oil?

 

3. Does dirtier oil produce more deposits on the valves? If so is more frequent oil changes better?

 

4. There was mention of using synthetic oil and that it does not collect/produce deposits on the valves as much as a blended oil. Why is this? Does synthetic oil somehow hold contaminants better?

 

And then back to my original question, if ethanol burns cleaner that would mean less contaminants in the oil correct? But not knowing the answers to my above question is this better for less deposits?

 

I see the benefit of a good catch can like the E2-X for prohibiting oil from ever getting back to the valves but do the other items also have a benefit in regards to less deposit build up?

 

Sorry lots of questions.

It's unburnt gases that get past the rings, condemsation, and oil vapor...it's all internal to the engine.

 

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

[GDI Tech]

It won't help the back side of the valves. That part never gets washed with fuel on a DI engine.

A water/meth setup might do the trick.

Correct. As no fuel touches the backsides of the valves there is nothing they can do. Wasted $ when before with port injection they were a great benefit.

 

Also, the pressure the injectors operate at is now 2000 PSI and above vs 50-55 in old port injection, so very rare for deposits to form on/in them as well now, but they still may after 50-100k miles.

 

Look back a few pages and I posted the diagrams of port injection and GDI.

 

 

 

Catch can in action for those that are curious what's going on in your PCV system. You can see that on agressive downshifts it really started to pull oil in. Imagine what our trucks are doing when you have the cruise control set and go down a hill. Hill descent control kicks in and starts downshifting. You're pulling a ton of oil into your intake.

 

This is on a Cadillac CTS-V with a damaged piston so tons of oil ingestion and it is on a dyno. Great video, and f you look closely, the oil is entering the right side of the clear container, and when vacuum is at it's greatest, it is being pulled up the left side and out passing through the can. An example of a design that only traps a small portion of the oil allowing most to "pull through".

 

This is the actual model below. As you can see there is no inlet or outlet designated, and there is media against both openings. The one used as the inlet works, coalescing oil to be contained, but as the opposite side also has it, and the size of the unit is too small to allow the velocity, or speed of flow through to slow enough to prevent the Bernoulli effect from pulling it through, it also saturates the outlet sides media and to demonstrate what occurs, take a wet wash cloth and put it to your mouth, now suck on it. What happens? You suck the water out of it. Now the flow and strength of the suction on a PCV system is many times stronger than your mouth so multiply the effect.

 

99% of all "catchcans" are just manufactured by a few companies and private labeled with a brand, and little actual science and engineering goes into the design. Just what someone "thinks" will work.

 

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You will find that brand is the same as many other, Diablosport, Phastek, Billet prototypes, Billet specialties, etc. (about 20 more brands made/designed by the same company).

 

I can post cut ways and test results from most any can on the market if people are interested in a certain brand/model so they can see most are just empty cans, or designed in such a way that even the ones that do separate also allow what has separated to be pulled through in large percentage VS what is retained.

 

Also, for any that want to see how much of an improvement GM made for 2014 and up on internal separation, the LT series valve covers have the most robust baffles and condensing towers ever, but they have about hot the "wall" of what can be done internally as this also will trap the damaging contaminates that must be removed/evacuated from the crankcase.

 

I urge all to go back and read from where I came in and study as much as possible. This is all a new world of caring for todays engines, and education is key. The Automakers have for decades "dumbed down" the buying public to not even open their hood unless a CEL prompts them to "service engine soon", and then it is to the dealer they go. To date, every single automaker denies any of this is happening, yet it is the #1 issue they are working on behind the scenes. The Co. I work for has a OEM solution that never needs to be serviced or drained for 100k plus miles that may be showing up from the factory in the next 4-5 years (the average time to implement a new technology) so until then, those that do care need to learn. And every can seller claims they are the "best", etc. and there is so much misinformation on the forums it is crazy. And ANY that vent or defeat all or part of the functions the PCV system performs will harm the engine over time as well. All the Elite systems retain emissions compliance.

 

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And the valley baffle as well has been improved.

 

Keep the good questions coming, this is what a educational discussion should be like, and you have a unique opportunity to pick the brain of an Automotive Engineer that has been working on GDI and the issues and solutions for years from the manufacturing side of this.