Modifying Your Car Could Be Against The Law...

Cowpie · April 25, 2015

I will never bow down to LAW, RULE, or REGULATION that tells me HOW, WHAT WHERE or WHEN, I can or can not do to any VEICHELE I OWN,,,,,NEVER..!!!

Try that mindset by owning a commercial truck and see how far you get!

One aspect of this that might have been mentioned but I missed it, is liability issues. We live in a lawsuit crazy world, and this move could be just a move for OEM's to cover their bacon. I am sure that if it hasn't already been tried, that soon some enterprising lawyer will find a way to sue an auto maker for allowing a vehicle owner to modify the tune on their vehicle to exceed the power and whatever design features and it ended up killing or injuring someone. If they can sue an ag tractor company over the fact that a farmer ran over a kangaroo rat in California, and why? Because they sold him the tractor knowing the risks that he might end up killing an endangered creature, then how much more of a target is the deep pockets of the auto makers if they keep mum about folks ratcheting up their vehicles via ECM changes?

Might be a stretch, but certainly within the realm of possibility.

KARNUT · April 25, 2015

There's not much other than some minor tuning I like to do on my new stuff, way over my head. I have a nice old truck I keep around to mess with over 500 Hp. If I mess it up its just a few thousand at most to fix, not 14K for an engine like in my 14. I can replace my whole old truck and build it for that. No emission no warranty no worries.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

truckofwinandawesome · April 25, 2015

Try that mindset by owning a commercial truck and see how far you get!

One aspect of this that might have been mentioned but I missed it, is liability issues. We live in a lawsuit crazy world, and this move could be just a move for OEM's to cover their bacon. I am sure that if it hasn't already been tried, that soon some enterprising lawyer will find a way to sue an auto maker for allowing a vehicle owner to modify the tune on their vehicle to exceed the power and whatever design features and it ended up killing or injuring someone. If they can sue an ag tractor company over the fact that a farmer ran over a kangaroo rat in California, and why? Because they sold him the tractor knowing the risks that he might end up killing an endangered creature, then how much more of a target is the deep pockets of the auto makers if they keep mum about folks ratcheting up their vehicles via ECM changes?

Might be a stretch, but certainly within the realm of possibility.

the way this law is worded, it would Force Independent shops and all of the tuning shops like out of Business; and DIYers wouldn't be allowed to work on their vehicles because they aren't "Factory Authorized" to work on the vehicle! people would be FORCED to go to the OVERPRICED Dealerships for ANY type of service!

Cowpie · April 25, 2015

Well, as I should, I went back and scoured thru the article. Every thing I read in there related to...

In comments submitted so far, automakers have expressed concern that allowing outsiders to access electronic control units that run critical vehicle functions like steering, throttle inputs and braking "leads to an imbalance by which the negative consequences far outweigh any suggested benefits," according to the Alliance of Global Automakers. In the worst cases, the organizations said an exemption for enthusiasts "leads to disastrous consequences."

Last September, Ford took steps toward consolidating such control, filing a lawsuit against Autel US Inc., a diagnostic-equipment manufacturer based in Huntington, New York. Ford alleges the company unlawfully copied trade secrets and accessed on-board computer systems that relay technical information on diagnostic codes and repair data.

And to support my last post...

For their part, manufacturers say they're more concerned about potential losses than new revenue streams. Tinkering with the ECUs can void a car owner's warranty, but automakers remain concerned with their liability if third parties make changes that could result in physical or financial harm.

Even per John Deere....

Comments from equipment manufacturer John Deere took a more condescending tone toward independent and amateur mechanics, noting that circumventing protected technology should be "against public policy because individual vehicle owners do not have the technological resources to provide safe, reliable and lawful software for repair, diagnosis or some dubious 'aftermarket personalization, modification or other improvement' that is not directed toward repair or diagnosis of the vehicle."

There is NOTHING that prevents shops and individuals from making basic repairs as they always have. Brakes, lights, replacing a seal in an axle, replacing a worn u-joint, oil changes, and on an on is not addressed or even inferred in the article. No, the sky is not falling except on those that like to tinker with ECM's and modify outside the parameters of the vehicle design.

I suggest, though I only had couple of electives in college on Psychology, that folks who are getting their panties in a wad over this have an enlarged paranoia gland. I suggest getting some therapy.

dirtfan21 · April 25, 2015

I wish someone would stuff your panties in your mouth and tape it shut. That last comment is completely unnecessary and doesn't need to be said to make your point. Leave that crap off these threads tough guy, nobody wants to read your BS bullying.

Cowpie · April 25, 2015

uh oh, me thinks ye doest protest too much!

kstruckcountry · April 25, 2015

There won't be any wadding or stuffing of panties around here.

If you aren't concerned about it that's fine, if you are that's what this thread is for.

darkfox1 · April 25, 2015

Why do you support this?

Tinkering in the ECU? You know like changing shift points, tuning your vehicle for headers or an air intake, or a supercharger/turbo charger?

You're ok with locking all of this down on the basis of "safety?"

It's nothing but control. Plain and simple.

Cowpie · April 26, 2015

I am not supporting anything. I like the ability to change setting in the ECM as well. And I do that with my commercial stuff. The only difference is, those OEM's provide the opportunity thru their shops to set a myriad of different settings (some over 200 parameters) to meet the needs of commercial vehicle users. What should be encouraged, is the auto and pickup OEM's offering the same thing to those owners. How difficult is it to just have a auto OEM change the ECM for new tire size? Usually a PITA. But commercial users can just pull in, have the computer plugged in, and get a quick change for tire rotation per mile, and get on down the road.

Can a individual 3/4 ton pickup owner with a Dmax and Allison trans pull in and have the trans shift points changed at a typical GM dealer? NO. But they can pull that same pickup into a Allison specific shop ( those shops listed on Allison's website ) and the they can change those parameters. Yes, even on the Allison 1000 in the pickups.

Or how about Karl's Chevrolet near me in Ankeny, Iowa, a major GM dealer in central Iowa. They also have a speed shop as part of the dealership. They can adjust the ECM, with the blessing of GM, parameters for installation of various items like superchargers, headers, etc. They even sell these performance items and will install them in their shop! They are online if anyone wants to think I am full of it and check this info out.

It might require a little re-thinking about what can be done, but I still don't think it is all that major of a deal. For those that are diligent, there are always ways to get things done when it comes to these major kinds of thing. For the typical repairs done that have nothing to do with the ECM, nothing is going to change. The quickie oil lube places will still exist. The Midas muffler and brake kind of shops will continue. And AutoZone, O'Reilly's, Napa, etc have nothing to worry about. Individual shops and individual owners will still be able to replace a u-joint, disc brakes, wheel hubs and bearings, on and on and on.

darkfox1 · April 26, 2015

What about LSx rod shops? Wouldn't they go by the wayside? or at the very least have to pay some hefty licensing fee to GM? Some kind of federal "vehicle repair shop" fee perhaps?

Its just another layer of intervention and involvement in our lives that we don't need. If joe schmoe whos never seen hp tuners before wants to plug into his car and blow his engine, that's on him. If his buddy does the same. that's on him.

and if he somehow messes his brakes up and crashes into me.. well.. thats still on him and we both have insurance. I could even sue his butt for pain and suffering and would probably win.

I never buy the "we need to regulate this to protect you" stuff. Let people get burned. Sometimes thats the only way they learn. We can't live our lives in hamster balls.

It's also a slap in the face to the rest of the population. This assumption that "people are too stupid to work on our cars" seems a bit absurd. We already have ASE certifications, if you want a "qualified technician" to work on your car, truck, tractor, you have no problem finding them under existing laws and regulations. Why add more? Wheres the problem that they're searching for?

Cowpie · April 26, 2015

But another aspect, the OEM, irregardless of any warranty they do or do not provide and the length of time of that warranty, is under obligation by the EPA to maintain emissions equipment on any new vehicle they sell for up to 80,000 miles by regulatory statute. They still have skin in the game. They are on the hook so they still have standing to demand that the ECM not be tinkered with. You want to focus your outrage, the encourage legislation that removes any OEM liability to ensure emissions are properly maintained. And legislation that removes any liability for their product after it leaves their hands. That is what it will take to cause the OEM's to back off. You buy a vehicle and assume all responsibility and liability and they could care less who works on it. That would also mean no recourse by the owner if something failed, since no warranties, no recall repairs, no nothing. I am not sure I am willing to go that route.

Jon A · April 26, 2015

You want to focus your outrage, the encourage legislation that removes any OEM liability to ensure emissions are properly maintained. And legislation that removes any liability for their product after it leaves their hands.

You are completely wrong. They already have no liability. If an owner screws with the emissions equipment on his vehicle, the OEM is under ZERO liability for that vehicle not meeting the standards.

truckofwinandawesome · April 28, 2015

You are completely wrong. They already have no liability. If an owner screws with the emissions equipment on his vehicle, the OEM is under ZERO liability for that vehicle not meeting the standards.

and this brings to mind my Trip to Alexander Chevy last July, to Diagnose and Replace ONE FAULTY OXYGEN SENSOR in my Aveo (and There are ZERO Modifications to the Emissions System; it is the same configuration it left Bupyeong, South Korea with on December 23, 2009!) it Cost me $544 and for someone who is unemployed like I am, that service Bill was (and to me, Still is) REALLY F*&^%ING PAINFUL. my point is, with as much Electronics the manufacturers keep shoving in the cars, there NEEDS to be an Electrical System and Powertrain Management Warranty that is Independent of all of the other warranties; because as a lot of you guys here probably know already, 90% of all Vehicle issues nowadays are Electrical or Electronic in nature. and if an electrical/Electronic issue pops up after the bumper to bumper runs out, then out comes the wallet, and you have to PAY OUT THE NOSE to get that issue fixed!

Spurshot · April 29, 2015

Well they do, but they call it a warranty. Microsoft products have shelf lives and when the life expires, the product can still be used, but you cannot get support for it anymore from Microsoft. (IE, no new updates are made for it.)

This is sort of like your vehicle warranty expiring.

The difference is you OWN the vehicle, you never really own microsoft software so much as you own the right to use it. Even though you have the CD.. Microsoft can stop allowing activation on their products at a later date. (To my knowledge they don't do that right now, but they probably will in the future.)

I would say we're "moving toward a rental society" but.. with property taxes, vehicle registration, licensing.. we haven't really been an ownership society for some time. I think the mask of ownership is just coming off.

I mean look at Microsoft's new cloud offers. Adobe does it too.. you pay a monthly fee to use office on your computer, to use photoshop.. but you NEVER own it. You have to keep paying and paying to continue to use the same thing.

I think thats what the auto makers want here. repeat scheduled business. They can't rely on us to determine when its time for a new car.. they want to make that determination for us.

Does anyone know if this has a court date?

I mean this could be like that bill Charlie Rangel proposes every year to make military service compulsory that has no teeth or chance of passing.. ever.. but its proposed every year. I mean they could just be rubbing a balloon on our hair with this.

The issue isn't whether you own the vehicle or not. That's clear. It's about whether you can access proprietary data, purportedly protected from use (usually prosecuted against businesses) by copyright law. If or when this surfaces, i suspect a carmaker will test this in court against a business, not an individual owner. It's never good business to sue the little guy, especially a customer. It'll be someone making money changing the OEM software/firmware. Probably someone making a lot of money. My imagination isn't good enough to give examples.

Remember, there are many things in your truck that are patented. Nobody is coming up the rope at you for using these ideas...unless you start making money with the idea.

tonyghkbve · April 29, 2015

It's just another sorry, politcal excuse to get American prisons filling up and buidling more every day for silly violations like this. Gotta love Merica, may God have mercy on our souls.