CAT scale results

Blue2500CC · October 1, 2015

Forgot to mention, It is interesting GM now recommends only 50% weight return. Has it been that way for a couple years? I could be wrong, but I thought my '10-1500 was 100%.

As for the 1500 vs 2500, if you are going to trade (vs changing springs/ axle option), you could haul a full fresh water tank AND take the generator or whatever else is needed. May make more sense from a financial point depending on 2500 prices vs the NHT Max Tow model.... MPG may be a little less, slightly stiffer ride, but no worrying about what is packed weight wise.

Jon A · October 1, 2015

I don't really agree with your comment about "NHT" package.

Increased rear spring rates, beefier 3.73 rear axle, upgraded cooling, increased payload and GCWR all J2807 certified. It's quite a bit more than changing the numbers on a sticker.

That's not what I meant. I was pointing out the 2014 NHT had all those same things but the GVWR was 7200. In 2015 they changed it to 7600 and the RAWR to 4300 without physically changing any parts, just writing in new numbers.

The NHT does have some nice other features and I'd definitely suggest you get it if you want a new truck but they (axle ratio, 9.76" R&P for 5.3, cooling, etc), pertain to the higher GCVWR. You were specifically asking about payload and the only NHT features that affect that are the rear springs and shocks--and in that aspect airbags and aftermarket shocks are much, much better.

Forgot to mention, It is interesting GM now recommends only 50% weight return. Has it been that way for a couple years? I could be wrong, but I thought my '10-1500 was 100%.

Yes, in testing it has been shown to be safer than 100%. Another reason I advise making the suspension more capable, improving ride and handling while towing with airbags so you don't need to transfer so much weight with the WDH for an acceptable ride.

ember1205 · October 1, 2015

Airbags are used as a "crutch" by FAR too many people. Used correctly, they will improve your ride quality a bit. Used improperly, they mask issues with your suspension not truly being able to handle the load you have on it. I see people on just about every forum I belong to saying that they use airbags instead of properly setting up their trailers or using a WDH. This is NOT safe.

EastCoast HD · October 2, 2015

That's not what I meant. I was pointing out the 2014 NHT had all those same things but the GVWR was 7200. In 2015 they changed it to 7600 and the RAWR to 4300 without physically changing any parts, just writing in new numbers.

Ahhh, yes! Gotcha now!

I didn't realize that when GM went J2807 on the 2015's towing that they played around with payload numbers as well.

Good info, Thanks.

EastCoast HD · October 2, 2015

Forgot to mention, It is interesting GM now recommends only 50% weight return. Has it been that way for a couple years? I could be wrong, but I thought my '10-1500 was 100%.

After viewing GM's online owners manuals, it looks like 2013 M.Y. is when they adopted the new procedure.

Flatland Shooter · October 2, 2015

Forgot to mention, It is interesting GM now recommends only 50% weight return. Has it been that way for a couple years? I could be wrong, but I thought my '10-1500 was 100%.

I guess I'm lost once again. What is "weight return"? How does it affect the towing numbers?

I'm still learning and do not want to make any mistakes when it comes to safety.

Thanks.

EastCoast HD · October 2, 2015

I guess I'm lost once again. What is "weight return"? How does it affect the towing numbers?

I'm still learning and do not want to make any mistakes when it comes to safety.

Thanks.

No worries FS, were all here to learn and share information

By no means am I an expert on any of this but I'll share my basic, non technical understanding.

"Weight return" is simply transferring weight back onto the front axle after a trailer has been coupled to the TV.

When coupled, without WDH or air bags etc. active, the rear of the TV will typically sag, thus raising and unloading the front suspension.

I believe most truck manufacturers in the past recommended restoring 100% of the removed weight.

Prior to coupling a trailer you would measure the height of the front fender to the ground. Then couple the trailer.

Lets say the front fender height increased 2" from the previous measurement, you would then adjust the tension on your WDH bars to bring the front down 2"

What some mfg's (GM) are now recommending is to only restore 50% of the removed weight.

Using the above example would mean splitting the difference of the two measurements, adjusting your WDH bars enough to drop the front fender 1".

Hope this makes sense.

Flatland Shooter · October 2, 2015

Makes perfect sense EastCoast HD.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Blue2500CC · October 3, 2015

Makes perfect sense EastCoast HD.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

I'm in the same boat, not an expert of anything, but know enough to get in trouble!!!

Go far enough back, the suggestion/ recommendation was for "equal drop" both front and rear axles when the wd bars were latched up. Or close to it with the rear squatting a little more if equal drop wasn't possible. Not sure when, maybe around 2002-2005 (I THINK!!!) they changed to only returning the lost front axle weight back to the fa as East explained. Now, I think it was Ford that started the 50% return to the fa. Not sure where Dodge is at this point....

EastCoast HD · October 3, 2015

I'm in the same boat, not an expert of anything, but know enough to get in trouble!!!

Go far enough back, the suggestion/ recommendation was for "equal drop" both front and rear axles when the wd bars were latched up. Or close to it with the rear squatting a little more if equal drop wasn't possible. Not sure when, maybe around 2002-2005 (I THINK!!!) they changed to only returning the lost front axle weight back to the fa as East explained. Now, I think it was Ford that started the 50% return to the fa. Not sure where Dodge is at this point....

From the 2015 Ford F150 owners manual.....

Only 25% is to be returned to the FA.

Crazy. Maybe in few more years we won't need a WDH at all.

Blue2500CC · October 3, 2015

Now only 25% for Ford!!!???? Lol That is crazy!!!! Just can't keep up with what is the "correct way". Or is it the manufactures haven't decided what is best yet???

SouthpawHD · October 4, 2015

Well just to add my worthless comments - I went with a '15 NHT 5.3L and it pulls my 5,500 TT (estimated) and hauls my 6 total passengers very well. Couldn't be happier with it. Would've liked a 6.2L, but those configs don't have 6-passenger capability.

Now a 2500 series would certainly have been better no doubt. But because I tow on flat terrain, mostly within 1-2 hours of home, it's my DD, and it wouldn't fit it my garage were all reasons I went the NHT. If I lived in mountainous terrain my decision would have been different.

Also, the NHT with a 5.3 is comparable or better than many 3/4 tons from just a few years ago and everyone got by then. Just sayin'.

EastCoast HD · October 4, 2015

Well just to add my worthless comments - I went with a '15 NHT 5.3L and it pulls my 5,500 TT (estimated) and hauls my 6 total passengers very well. Couldn't be happier with it. Would've liked a 6.2L, but those configs don't have 6-passenger capability.

Now a 2500 series would certainly have been better no doubt. But because I tow on flat terrain, mostly within 1-2 hours of home, it's my DD, and it wouldn't fit it my garage were all reasons I went the NHT. If I lived in mountainous terrain my decision would have been different.

Also, the NHT with a 5.3 is comparable or better than many 3/4 tons from just a few years ago and everyone got by then. Just sayin'.

I've owned three 2500HD's since 2003. More truck than I really needed. This past Jan. I traded my '11 HD for my current PU, not expecting to purchase my TT.

I went for the 1500 because it was more practical for my use and got a fantastic deal on it. Even now using it to pull my TT, I still think it'll work out fine.

Any chance you can post what your trucks payload is?

I been looking at NHT optioned trucks. One is a Sierra CC SLT short bed that had a payload of 1917 lbs.

SouthpawHD · October 4, 2015

I've owned three 2500HD's since 2003. More truck than I really needed. This past Jan. I traded my '11 HD for my current PU, not expecting to purchase my TT.

I went for the 1500 because it was more practical for my use and got a fantastic deal on it. Even now using it to pull my TT, I still think it'll work out fine.

Any chance you can post what your trucks payload is?

I been looking at NHT optioned trucks. One is a Sierra CC SLT short bed that had a payload of 1917 lbs.

2050 payload - GMC SLT CCSB. They are hard to find, I went to and spoke with nearly 10 dealerships and two dealerships searched the entire Midwest.

And I agree about the practicality of the 1500s. They just make better DDs, at least for me.

Jon A · October 9, 2015

Airbags are used as a "crutch" by FAR too many people.

And FAR too many people with little understanding of vehicle dynamics spread this mis-information. They’re no more “crutches” than your rear leaf springs are. They are springs. Stiff springs are appropriate for heavy loads, soft springs are best suited to light loads.

GM picks a compromised rate to do an adequate job during both loaded and unloaded conditions knowing full well they’re optimum for neither. If tuning the truck specifically for heavy loads, they would use much heavier rear springs—as they do in the HDs and big trucks. It’s not rocket science, just basic suspension design.

When you pick a spring rate for a suspension, you do it based upon the sprung mass and desired ride characteristics as your main inputs. When the sprung mass is doubled, the required spring rate needed to maintain a similar ride is also doubled.

Airbags add spring rate almost exactly as if you swap your leaf springs for a much heavier duty set when towing or hauling something. They’re just much easier to “swap.” The only way to tune a suspension to be optimum when running max payload is to put in springs that would be about twice as stiff as you’d like when empty. Then the vehicle will then “ride like a truck.” HD buyers expect this and will tolerate it more readily than ½ ton buyers, many of whom will use the truck primarily as a commuter car. So companies generally put the softest springs they can get away with on those trucks.

they mask issues with your suspension not truly being able to handle the load you have on it.

That’s like saying adding a bunch of money to your bank account only “masks” the fact your bank account is empty. No, it FIXES the underlying problem. The primary problem caused by overloading a suspension is that the suspension no longer has enough spring rate as explained above. That’s what the bags can fix. Not crutch or bandaid, but FIX.

I see people on just about every forum I belong to saying that they use airbags instead of properly setting up their trailers or using a WDH. This is NOT safe.

That’s pretty rare. In fact an amazingly small percentage of people towing with ½ tons use bags at all, much less misuse them so. Probably because they’re misinformed so often on those same boards that bags are some sort of crutch or last resort while a WDH actually “fixes” something, when the reality is much closer to the opposite. I’ll bet for every person you see doing that I can find 10 cranking on their WDH way too much actually making them less safe in many ways than the guy with just bags.

Of course nobody should be advocating using bags instead of a WDH any time using a WDH is appropriate. Using BOTH provides the best ride, handling and largest amount of safety one can possibly get. Neither used alone in such an application can “take the place of” the other because they do different things, both of which make the rig safer (as long as you don’t crank on the WDH too much).

And for some uses a WDH is of no help—hauling something heavy in the bed, towing over rough terrain offroad, etc, in which case you’ll be damn glad you have the bags.