Air filter, cabin filter, fuel induction service needed???

jay webb · October 5, 2019

16 hours ago, Doublebase said:

I'll never go back for my next "free oil change", after what I went through with my first one. First I called a dealer, they said...we don't have a quick lube, you'll have to make an appointmentment and right now we're two weeks out. No thanks. Then I called another, they said based on my mileage I didn't need one...umm, I'm not into going 7,500 mikes on oil changes, can I just get one now? Well I gues you can, but we're two weeks out. Really? Then I finally found one that was "only" two days out, so I went there...I sat Inc that waiting room for two hours. Two. Fell asleep on a sofa - woke up with the service writer apologizing that it took so long - won't be back, I'll never go back.

as for an induction cleaning at 19,000 miles??? Lmao! If your truck needs an induction "cleaning" at 19,000 miles, time to trade in the truck and never buy that brand again. Laughable. And let me tell you how they'd perform that induction cleaning...the Tech would through the bottle of "induction cleaning solution" in his bottom tool box drawer...boom, you got your induction cleaning! Would you like a brake fluid flush?? It's only $110 bucks, were having a sale. And that would consist of the tech opening the hood, maybe turkey basting your master cylinder, then spraying the master cylinder cap off with brake clean (just to make it look like they did something).

ok when you go in with out an appointment you are going to wait. thats the thing, your vehicle isnt there before all the others. if you need an oil change dont wait til the day off and then expect them to rush you ahead of every one else. if you know you are coming due , maybe call and make an appointment in advance and that way when it is due you have the appointment go in and get it done in a timely manner. also alot of times if you make an appointment and request a loaner you can drop your vehicle off get a loner to drive and they will notify you when yours is ready and you come back so you dont sit and wait.

2ndly an induction service is more then what you think it is. the 1st part is to clean the carbon build up on the throttle body bore/plate. the 2nd part is a fuel additive, the 3rd part is a pressurized chemical being misted into you intake while it is running and hot to help clean the valves/pistons from carbon deposits. which is more important to do more often due to the fact these are direct injected engines meaning fuel dont spray on the valves like port injection and the valves will /can carbon up.

so plz know what you are talking about.

jay webb · October 5, 2019

On 10/4/2019 at 7:32 AM, NCPGMC said:

That's how much mine was last week at the dealer; I wished I would have known it was that much before I told them to do it. It's not too bad to change, just remove the glove box with 4 screws. Anyway; ever since they changed it I can hear the fan blowing now and it is driving me crazy. Has anyone else changed the cabin filter and then heard the fan blowing afterward. I took the filter out it seems fine, nothing unusual about it.

what happens is when you pull the filter debris can fall behind it into the blower motor/fan , typically is a leaf or something. to remedy this you need to drop the blower motor and clean it out. you can take it back and complain and they will do it at no charge.

NCPGMC · October 5, 2019

Yeah, I figured as much...I am going to try and run a flexible vacuum hose down into the blower and see if it makes a difference.

KARNUT · October 5, 2019

Last time I got my Toyota oil change it took 1/2 hour. Most it’s taken has been an hour. By the time I put my coveralls on get the ramps out, locate the tools, drain pan, I’m all ready an hour in. Don’t get me started on tire rotation. All that fun in close to 100 degree heat. I’ll spend the 90$ every 8-10K miles.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doublebase · October 5, 2019

1 hour ago, jay webb said:

ok when you go in with out an appointment you are going to wait. thats the thing, your vehicle isnt there before all the others. if you need an oil change dont wait til the day off and then expect them to rush you ahead of every one else. if you know you are coming due , maybe call and make an appointment in advance and that way when it is due you have the appointment go in and get it done in a timely manner. also alot of times if you make an appointment and request a loaner you can drop your vehicle off get a loner to drive and they will notify you when yours is ready and you come back so you dont sit and wait.

2ndly an induction service is more then what you think it is. the 1st part is to clean the carbon build up on the throttle body bore/plate. the 2nd part is a fuel additive, the 3rd part is a pressurized chemical being misted into you intake while it is running and hot to help clean the valves/pistons from carbon deposits. which is more important to do more often due to the fact these are direct injected engines meaning fuel dont spray on the valves like port injection and the valves will /can carbon up.

so plz know what you are talking about.

First off, learn how to read, it goes a long way. Where did I say I just came in unannounced and “expect them to rush me ahead of everyone else”? I had an appointment.

And second, I know what I’m talking about, I’ve worked in the industry for over 30 years and I’m an ASE master tech. Just because you’re a glorified lube tech selling “induction cleaners”, means nothing to me. The fact that you actually believe an induction cleaning is necessary at 19,000 miles - or even going to do anything at any mileage - is absolutely laughable to me. I’m getting secondary embarrassment for you, I really am. Tell you what, after you’re done with an oil change, walk over to a lead tech’s bay and ask him if you can pour some solvent/cleaner/whatever fancies you, onto a head he’s removed or a set of valves that has carbon on it and find out for yourself that it does NOTHING unless you scrape It. Zip. Hell let it sit for a week, add heat to it, sprinkle your hopes and dreams on it...it’s not going to budge, and IF IT DID on a real live engine, you’d have carbon chunks getting tossed into your combustion chamber, scraping the walls. But don’t worry, that won’t happen, the carbon will just laugh at it.

Plz learn to comprehend, go back to school and stop smelling the glue.

jay webb · October 5, 2019

2 hours ago, Doublebase said:

magically now you are a 30 yr ase master tech yet dont see to understand that a throttle body can become dirty with deposits in that amount of time and see how an induction service could be needed or recommended. also its part of GMs normal maintenance recommendations and well this is what they do to clean carbon from vehicles with out tearing the heads off. its called a top engine clean.

BUT i guess you are right other wise GM would have it as part of SI for a repair for issues. oh wait.....

16-NA-383: Information on Rough Idle, Crank No Start, Extended Crank or Misfire Due to Excessive Carbon on Top of the Valves or Sticking Valves, Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) Illuminated - DTC P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304, P0305, P0306, P0307, P0308 Set - (May 21, 2019)

Subject:

Information on Rough Idle, Crank No Start, Extended Crank or Misfire Due to Excessive Carbon on Top of the Valves or Sticking Valves, Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) Illuminated - DTC P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304, P0305, P0306, P0307, P0308 Set

This Bulletin replaces PIP5029H. Please discard PIP5029H.

Brand:	Model:	Model Year:		VIN:		Engine:	Transmission:
Brand:	Model:	from	to	from	to	Engine:	Transmission:

Buick	GM Passenger Cars and Trucks (including LCF MD)	2000	2019			Gasoline Engines Only
Cadillac
Chevrolet
GMC

Involved Region or Country

North America and N.A. Export Regions

Condition

Some customers may comment on the following conditions:

Rough idle
Crank no start
Extended crank
Engine misfire

The technician may find one or more of the following DTCs set:

P0300
P0301
P0302
P0303
P0304
P0305
P0306
P0307
P0308

SI diagnosis may or may not isolate the cause of the misfire depending on whether the intake/exhaust valves are sticking at the time of the diagnosis.

Cause

This condition may be caused by major carbon build up on the intake and/or exhaust valves due to fuel contamination or incomplete burning of the fuel as shown below, so the misfires should not have appeared until accumulating at least 8,000 km (5,000 mi) or more.

Note: Fuel oxidation and volatility concerns can often cause these issues as well, however they cannot generally be checked in service. Trying a different, high quality Top Tier fuel and regular oil changes is sometimes the best diagnostic. Additional gasoline retailers are added to the TOP TIER list when their gasoline meet the TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline Standards. For the most up to date list of fuel marketers that offer TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline, refer to this website: www.toptiergas.com.

Information

Important: A new reformulated Top Engine Cleaner has been released by CCA Parts and is recommended and approved to use in the GM vehicle line.

The graphics below may show typical carbon build-up during engine disassembly and inspection of the cylinder heads:

When the engine is cold, the compression on multiple cylinders may be at 0 kPa (0 psi).

The engine also may pop through the intake or exhaust while cranking and the spark plugs may be fuel fouled when inspected.

Some engines may also experience valve damage or cam followers that are out of position as a result of this.

If this concern is encountered, perform SI diagnosis. If the SI diagnosis leads to a compression loss due to a valve sealing concern and/or eliminates everything else external to the engine, the following information may help:

If there is no sign of valve damage or cam followers that are out of place, perform the following procedure to free up sticking valves and to remove carbon from the valves and pistons.
If valve damage is present or if there are cam followers that are out of place, perform engine mechanical repairs as necessary to correct the concern and then perform the procedure below to prevent the concern from returning.
Perform an upper engine and valve cleaning procedure.
Below are examples of valves that have gone through a Top Engine cleaning procedure.

Before Cleanup	After Cleanup

Video Training (U.S. Dealers)

There is also a related training video on this subject that was included in the January 2013 Emerging Issues Video that technicians should consider viewing. Because the training video does not mention this, please note that it is acceptable to use equivalent tools and the engine oil and filter should also be replaced to complete the repairs. The training video is available at the GM Center of Learning Website and can be viewed by following this path:

- Go to www.centerlearning.com
- Enter Training ID
- Click Resources
- Click Service Know How / Tech Assist
- Click Emerging Issues
- Click 10213.01D - January 2013 Emerging Issues (VOD)
- Click the Topics Tab on Upper Right
- Click Link for PIP5029: Decarbonizing Valves in SIDI Engines

Service Procedure

Warning: Please follow all safety instructions noted on the bottle and service tool. Ensure safety glasses and gloves are being worn during the procedure.

Fuel Injector Cleaner Kit J-35800-A	Cleaner Nozzle EN-35800-20

jay webb · October 5, 2019

3 hours ago, NCPGMC said:

Yeah, I figured as much...I am going to try and run a flexible vacuum hose down into the blower and see if it makes a difference.

they arent too difficult to remove, under the dash /glove box there is that panel it has 4 7mm screws and it comes off. the worst is the one in the upper right corner by the firewall. then when that is out of the way its 3 torx screws that hold the blower motor to the case and boom its out.

Doublebase · October 6, 2019

4 hours ago, jay webb said:

magically now you are a 30 yr ase master tech yet dont see to understand that a throttle body can become dirty with deposits in that amount of time and see how an induction service could be needed or recommended. also its part of GMs normal maintenance recommendations and well this is what they do to clean carbon from vehicles with out tearing the heads off. its called a top engine clean.

BUT i guess you are right other wise GM would have it as part of SI for a repair for issues. oh wait.....

16-NA-383: Information on Rough Idle, Crank No Start, Extended Crank or Misfire Due to Excessive Carbon on Top of the Valves or Sticking Valves, Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) Illuminated - DTC P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304, P0305, P0306, P0307, P0308 Set - (May 21, 2019)

Subject: Information on Rough Idle, Crank No Start, Extended Crank or Misfire Due to Excessive Carbon on Top of the Valves or Sticking Valves, Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) Illuminated - DTC P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304, P0305, P0306, P0307, P0308 Set

This Bulletin replaces PIP5029H. Please discard PIP5029H.

Brand:

Model:

Model Year:

VIN:

Engine:

Transmission:

from

to

from

to

Buick

GM Passenger Cars and Trucks (including LCF MD)

2000

2019

Gasoline Engines Only

Cadillac

Chevrolet

GMC

Involved Region or Country

North America and N.A. Export Regions

Condition

Some customers may comment on the following conditions:

Rough idle

Crank no start

Extended crank

Engine misfire

The technician may find one or more of the following DTCs set:

P0300

P0301

P0302

P0303

P0304

P0305

P0306

P0307

P0308

SI diagnosis may or may not isolate the cause of the misfire depending on whether the intake/exhaust valves are sticking at the time of the diagnosis.

Cause

This condition may be caused by major carbon build up on the intake and/or exhaust valves due to fuel contamination or incomplete burning of the fuel as shown below, so the misfires should not have appeared until accumulating at least 8,000 km (5,000 mi) or more.

Note: Fuel oxidation and volatility concerns can often cause these issues as well, however they cannot generally be checked in service. Trying a different, high quality Top Tier fuel and regular oil changes is sometimes the best diagnostic. Additional gasoline retailers are added to the TOP TIER list when their gasoline meet the TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline Standards. For the most up to date list of fuel marketers that offer TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline, refer to this website: www.toptiergas.com.

Information

Important: A new reformulated Top Engine Cleaner has been released by CCA Parts and is recommended and approved to use in the GM vehicle line.

The graphics below may show typical carbon build-up during engine disassembly and inspection of the cylinder heads:

When the engine is cold, the compression on multiple cylinders may be at 0 kPa (0 psi).

The engine also may pop through the intake or exhaust while cranking and the spark plugs may be fuel fouled when inspected.

Some engines may also experience valve damage or cam followers that are out of position as a result of this.

If this concern is encountered, perform SI diagnosis. If the SI diagnosis leads to a compression loss due to a valve sealing concern and/or eliminates everything else external to the engine, the following information may help:

If there is no sign of valve damage or cam followers that are out of place, perform the following procedure to free up sticking valves and to remove carbon from the valves and pistons.

If valve damage is present or if there are cam followers that are out of place, perform engine mechanical repairs as necessary to correct the concern and then perform the procedure below to prevent the concern from returning.

Perform an upper engine and valve cleaning procedure.

Below are examples of valves that have gone through a Top Engine cleaning procedure.

Before Cleanup

After Cleanup

Video Training (U.S. Dealers)
There is also a related training video on this subject that was included in the January 2013 Emerging Issues Video that technicians should consider viewing. Because the training video does not mention this, please note that it is acceptable to use equivalent tools and the engine oil and filter should also be replaced to complete the repairs. The training video is available at the GM Center of Learning Website and can be viewed by following this path:

Go to www.centerlearning.com

Enter Training ID

Click Resources

Click Service Know How / Tech Assist

Click Emerging Issues

Click 10213.01D - January 2013 Emerging Issues (VOD)

Click the Topics Tab on Upper Right

Click Link for PIP5029: Decarbonizing Valves in SIDI Engines

Service Procedure

Warning: Please follow all safety instructions noted on the bottle and service tool. Ensure safety glasses and gloves are being worn during the procedure.

Fuel Injector Cleaner Kit J-35800-A

Cleaner Nozzle EN-35800-20

Shouldn’t you be changing wiper blades or something? Maybe selling some nitrogen for tires?

Oh, what ground braking stuff! Clean a throttle plate! Oh my! Carbon builds up on valves! Well thank you, very informative.

Now why don’t you take some before and after pictures of those valves, that carbon buildup...and the results of your three part induction service. That’s if they let the lube techs remove an intake nowadays.

Anyone on here can install a catch can and spend 10 bucks on some CRC valve cleaner, clean the throttle plate, spray it in the intake (on a hot engine no less!), and buy some Techron and be done with it. And guess what? It’s not going to do a thing.

You haven’t worked for GM for very long, have you? You realize that GM will “try” every cheap half assed “solution” before they “fix” anything, right? I mean, even the lube techs know that...or at least they see and hear it from the real techs. The only way carbon is going to be prevented from going on those valves is if that induction cleaner is administered every time that engine is turned on - and that’s called port injection - the thing before DI, and the thing manufacturers are reintroducing along with their direct injection systems. That’s it, hate to break it to you.

And thanks for for posting a GM technical service bulletin, there once was a bulletin for intermediate shafts on all their passenger cars. The first one told us to take the shaft off and “stroke it” fifteen times and then reassemble. When that didn’t work they told us to inject a syringe into it and fill it with a wax. When that didn’t work they told us to replace the shafts, by that point it didn’t really matter.

PS— at 19,000 miles your induction cleaner would be covered under warranty if it was a repair, which it is not (because there’s nothing broken). And it’s also not part of the vehicle’s manufacture maintenance schedule, it’s an up sell.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Doublebase

GN2018 · October 6, 2019

1 hour ago, Doublebase said:

And it’s also not part of the vehicle’s manufacture maintenance schedule, it’s an up sell.

Don’t really want to get in on this, but this, to me, is the main point. Induction cleaning is not on the maintenance schedule in my owners manual.

From reading the bulletin, I guess it’s good I get most of my gas at Costco, a Top Tier gas supplier.

jay webb · October 6, 2019

1 hour ago, Doublebase said:

actually far from a lube tech, 7 years at the same dealership, ASE in A1 A4 A5 A6 A7 A8

100% gm training in all the same categories as well.

i do steering and suspension , brakes, hvac, trim/electrical, drive ability, and light engine/light line

Doublebase · October 6, 2019

9 hours ago, jay webb said:

actually far from a lube tech, 7 years at the same dealership, ASE in A1 A4 A5 A6 A7 A8

100% gm training in all the same categories as well.

i do steering and suspension , brakes, hvac, trim/electrical, drive ability, and light engine/light line

Good for you, you’re probably at that point where you’re wondering if you should keep going or get out of the trade. I’d suggest...go back to school nights - maybe you already have a degree, maybe an associates through a school that offered automotive - if so I’d go and get your bachelors and maybe head into the management side of the business, or at the very least leave yourself some options.

They make these cars too good, you’re going to have to up sell everything. Even GM (who has their problems) still makes a pretty good vehicle. And once GM throws port injection into their direct injection systems? There goes the valve cleaning service. And if you’re doing diagnostics right now, you know you’re getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop (the dealer is not going to pay you for your time, the customer isn’t, GM isn’t, it’s not right).

rah7777777 · October 6, 2019

Back when I was a tech (Benz) we had All these snake oil services too. All by BG brand I think.
induction service, trans “flush”, power steering flush and I can’t recall the others.
I thought they were all a joke, especially compared to do the service the regular way

only way that induction service crap would work is if you did it every 1000 miles from Brand new. Doing it once a year won’t do jack!

and don’t get me started on the bull shit trans “flush”

mookdoc6 · October 7, 2019

15 hours ago, Doublebase said:

Good for you, you’re probably at that point where you’re wondering if you should keep going or get out of the trade. I’d suggest...go back to school nights - maybe you already have a degree, maybe an associates through a school that offered automotive - if so I’d go and get your bachelors and maybe head into the management side of the business, or at the very least leave yourself some options.

They make these cars too good, you’re going to have to up sell everything. Even GM (who has their problems) still makes a pretty good vehicle. And once GM throws port injection into their direct injection systems? There goes the valve cleaning service. And if you’re doing diagnostics right now, you know you’re getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop (the dealer is not going to pay you for your time, the customer isn’t, GM isn’t, it’s not right).

The opposite can be said too? They are getting more complicated by the minute. Being Tech savy/wrench savy etc. with experience like his in a dwindling "trade" environment? Guy can probably command his own pay now and decide where "He" wants to work? MGT ain't all that. not saying a Bachelor's does not hurt but "Certs" probably garner as much or more in salary.

Edited October 7, 2019 by mookdoc6

NCPGMC · October 7, 2019

So I took my new filter out to look at it and I notice there is not writing or airflow arrow indicator or anything on it...just "made in china" on one of the sides. Long story short I am looking at other cabin filters to replace it with. What is the difference in the ACDelco parts "CF188" and "CF188F and "CF1188?"

Donzi4me · October 11, 2019

On 10/2/2019 at 9:53 PM, JimCost2014 said:

I agree, whether they do it or you, change the filters at 20000 miles.

They both get pretty dirty in that time span.

Didn't realize this would be such a strong topic....

FYI: I changed my cabin air filter on my '17 Yukon Denali at 25K miles after the dealer told me it needed replaced. When I pulled it at 25K, it was clean as a whistle. However my vehicles are garaged anytime they are not rolling down the road. (Retired : ) I can see it getting dirtier in a different environment.

I like to do some of my own maintenance work from time to time. However as noted, the fuel induction service kind of threw me for a loop. I have burned premium fuel in both 6.2's since day 1.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Donzi4me