5.3 Dynamic fuel management

[Theynine]

My 2021 5.3 Silverado RST has it on the invoice,  but I have no clue when its doing anything.  No change in sound or performance.  I would assume it would throw a code if it wasn’t working.  My 400 mile trip gizmo tells me I average 16.1 mpg, which is four mpg better than my 89 ford bronco with its V8.  That’s 32 years of performance advancements for ya!

[Adamace1]

I have 11,000 miles on my 2021 5.3 crew cab 4x4. I don't notice the DFM. I am averaging over 20mpg. I use my truck for work and personal. I do idle it at work some. I get 22 to 24.7 on trips with it. I'm very happy so far. If I have major problems from the DFM like lifter failure I will not be happy. Changing my oil with mobil one every 5k maybe that will help.

[Kanon Morris]

So, I recently drove a 2021 Elevation 5.3L w/o DFM, and now I'm driving a 2021 AT4 5.3L w/ DFM.   I'm 90% sure the non-DFM had more get-up-and-go than the AT4 w/ DFM.  It's possible there's an

 

I'll know for sure after this weekend.  I'll report back.

[Grumpy Bear]

On 3/31/2021 at 9:44 AM, A muz said:

I hear everyone complain about the AFM but i never had an issue i asked Some mechanics about it , they told me its all about oil change never change at 10k km always at 5k and if u can change it at 4-4.5k km , have doing that for 6 years and not a single problem with the engine 5.3 6spd 2016 sierra with 220k km still going strong 

^^^^^^^^

This

 

 

[KARNUT]

I know Ram owners who changed their oil often and had cylinder deactivation problems. I know people are going to say well it’s a Ram. It’s my brother he currently has three in his business. All are driven mostly on the highway. The one of the three was the second of the three and still under warranty. My father in law had an odyssey by Honda it started burning oil at 80K. He just traded it in. He had it in his 80s so he was old school in oil changes. The dealership he bought many vehicles at said it was deactivation related. My other brother 2010 challenger years ago (his wife’s car) broke a timing chain. They fixed it under warranty and advised a tune to turn off cylinder deactivation. They still have it. She sometimes races it now when my brother races his little red truck. 12 years later no problem. It’s not all oil related. Some people who drive under 60 mph will get the benefit of this technology, if it doesn’t fail. You could always change the oil every 3K. Soak the engine with cleaner and cross your fingers. Some people have to work, mow lawns on weekends. And of course run their kids around. Baby sitting a temperamental engine isn’t high on the list. All that for the possibility of a savings a couple a miles per gallon. If of course you drive 60 miles an hour or under. There was a recent thread by a member. While driving his wife around he encountered normal driving situations. The horror. When it was all said and done 22 miles per gallon was the result. Normalcy as advertised mileage. Sweating engine temperature with stop and go traffic, normal stuff. Probably went home changed all the fluids. Debating, wondering if adding this trip to the average and lowing the overall MPGs. That’s higher than my overall in a CRV. 

[Grumpy Bear]

Tech Bulletin on JB-7011 lifters for GM LS engines ... - Melling             Cut and paste into your browser. 

 

While this bulletin was posted before the Ecotec3 motor series for the LS series the Ecotec3 motors share this lifter, guide and basic VLOM/ECU strategy. Look it up yourself. 

 

Read it carefully. It is an oil related issue. Argue with Melling. They supply GM with OEM lifters. GM has a paper on this as well advising shorter OCI's. They are also in the process of DEXOS1Gen3 specs to reduce varnish and sludge below that of DEXOS1Gen2.  I wonder why? 

 

In addition to varnish and sludge, foaming, another oil related issue will cause a lifter failure. Bore wear is also an oil related issue addressed in this bulletin.  None of those things are design issues. All of them are lubrication MAINTENANCE issues

 

Two things are true. I wore a black sport jacket today and the sun came up...but the sun did not rise because I wore a black jacket. That is also true. What my neighbors/fathers/brothers Dodge/Ford/flying squirrel did has nothing to do with nothing GM.   

 

 I am pretty sure that Melling has a very good handle on this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

Question. Do you change your oil in a way that gets the most value from the oil OR do you change oil to get the most value from the machine? 

 

Machinery Lubrication says about varnish: The products of lubricant degradation are called sludge and varnish. These products start in the dissolved form and accumulate until the lubricant reaches its capacity, referred to as the saturating point, forcing any excess to convert into insoluble degradation products.

 

There is allot of information in that definition. An important point is that until the oil reaches saturation those dissolved products stay in solution and can be removed by an exchange of oil. Simple. 

 

Question: If your lifter fails due to a plugged VLOM screen OR and varnished lifter/lifter body interface OR your rings collapse and your motor starts using an unholy amount of oil...are you changing your oil often enough?

 

I use to do UOA and then realized that those wear metal numbers are in the rearview mirror. That the detergent, the calcium and magnesium, can become ineffective and still show good elemental levels. The test reports calcium in ppm not its chemical state. That is the purpose of the TBN/TAN ratio, reserve effectiveness. Often your UAO guy will tell you to run it down to a TBN of 1 or very near that point. 

 

Machinery Lubrication makes this point: 

 

In the past, standard practices for determining optimal drain intervals using fluid analysis have required testing the oil for TBN and TAN. The theory was that when new, an oil’s TBN is high and its TAN is low, and the longer the oil is used, TBN decreases while TAN increases.

 

The point at which they meet is the optimal time to change the oil. It is important to note that ASTM D-4739 should be used when testing the TBN of used (in-service) oils as opposed to ASTM D-2896, which may be used when testing TBN in new oils. ASTM D-4739 uses a weaker acid for titration than does ASTM D-2896 and, therefore, produces slightly lower TBN results.

 

Historical test data shows the relationship between TBN and TAN to be quite consistent. TAN just begins to increase when TBN depletion reaches 50 percent. As the TBN drops below 50 percent, TAN begins increasing rapidly. So in reality, TBN depletion can reach about 65 percent before it becomes necessary to change the oil.

Consider a CJ-4 engine oil with a starting TBN of 9.0. TAN will hold steady at around 1.75 to 2.0 until TBN depletes to around 5.5, at which point TAN begins to increase. The two will meet at around 3.15 to 3.5. As a result, most laboratories do not require both a TAN and a TBN to make extended drain recommendations.

 

The following table represents TBN/TAN test results across a fleet of more than 450 pick-up/delivery trucks. TAN remains fairly steady until the TBN depletes from 12 to about 6. The two meet at between 50 and 65 percent depletion of the TBN. The TAN is significantly higher than the TBN after the TBN has reached 65 percent depletion, which indicates that the oil’s ability to neutralize acids has dropped significantly. The oil should be changed to prevent corrosive engine wear from occurring.

 

 

So what happens when the TBN reaches 50% of it's ASTM D-4739 value? . These products start in the dissolved form and accumulate until the lubricant reaches its capacity, referred to as the saturating point, forcing any excess to convert into insoluble degradation products.

 

Some of these will be filtered but much of it will adhere to the motors internals. 

 

An interesting note. The acid value of an oil is pretty much the same across the all brands give or take. A little higher for Ester containing oils but...the initial TBN varies allot. Now unless you do a VOA of the oil as a general rule the 'advertised" TBN is about 2 points higher than the ASTM D4739 value. 

 

Well if these products are insoluble then that test should catch it, right? WRONG. It's stuck to critical parts and not IN the oil your dropping. 

 

Question: Which product of oil degradation are easier to remove. The one in solution in the oil or the one sticking to your motors internals? 

 

I found that Pepper using Red Line HP hit mid 4's at 5K miles. It starts as a ASTM D-2896 10 and change so 8. No issues. That MY truck used as I use it. Test and verify. Yours WILL be different unless you are our clone.

 

Dizzy the wife's Terrain used QSUD which starts with an ASTM D-2896 of 8 so an ASTM D-4739 of 6. Run it 5K, which we did gave a number under 3. OLM would have had it running out to 7,500 miles. Rings stuck. Cam phasers froze. 

 

Live and learn the hard way. 

 

So again, are you maximizing oil value or motor value? 

 

FYI to those to like to lie about others among us: 

 

I count an log every drop of fuel and every mile no matter what it does to the records. Why on earth would I steal from myself.

  

 

I really hate a false witness, lord! 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Grumpy Bear

[TxVet33]

13 hours ago, KARNUT said:

I know Ram owners who changed their oil often and had cylinder deactivation problems. I know people are going to say well it’s a Ram. It’s my brother he currently has three in his business. All are driven mostly on the highway. The one of the three was the second of the three and still under warranty. My father in law had an odyssey by Honda it started burning oil at 80K. He just traded it in. He had it in his 80s so he was old school in oil changes. The dealership he bought many vehicles at said it was deactivation related. My other brother 2010 challenger years ago (his wife’s car) broke a timing chain. They fixed it under warranty and advised a tune to turn off cylinder deactivation. They still have it. She sometimes races it now when my brother races his little red truck. 12 years later no problem. It’s not all oil related. Some people who drive under 60 mph will get the benefit of this technology, if it doesn’t fail. You could always change the oil every 3K. Soak the engine with cleaner and cross your fingers. Some people have to work, mow lawns on weekends. And of course run their kids around. Baby sitting a temperamental engine isn’t high on the list. All that for the possibility of a savings a couple a miles per gallon. If of course you drive 60 miles an hour or under. There was a recent thread by a member. While driving his wife around he encountered normal driving situations. The horror. When it was all said and done 22 miles per gallon was the result. Normalcy as advertised mileage. Sweating engine temperature with stop and go traffic, normal stuff. Probably went home changed all the fluids. Debating, wondering if adding this trip to the average and lowing the overall MPGs. That’s higher than my overall in a CRV. 

I drove a RAM, all HEMI's with AFM, for the last 16, 07-16, years till I got my 19 Yuk last year, never had one engine problem.  My wife drives a 13 Honda Accord with 75K on the dial.  Never had any engine or brake problems.  4-5K oil changes, Mobil1/purolator filters/K&N Air Filters.  I miss the 'work' in my RAM's.  BUT, my SLT is comfy on an Old mans back!!

[diyer2]

MY 2 CENTS

I change all my fluids to get the most value from the machine. All my machines.

Oil and all other fluids are like food, or alcohol to me. We use them, then dispose them. So you can eat bad food, drink cheap alcohol and get cheap with fluid changes. I will not do any of this.

 

The debate about OCI's will never be over. How can it when everybody's smarter than the other guy.

 

[KARNUT]

15 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

MY 2 CENTS

I change all my fluids to get the most value from the machine. All my machines.

Oil and all other fluids are like food, or alcohol to me. We use them, then dispose them. So you can eat bad food, drink cheap alcohol and get cheap with fluid changes. I will not do any of this.

 

The debate about OCI's will never be over. How can it when everybody's smarter than the other guy.

 

Iv used Amsoil and now other synthetics since the late 80s. I’m a retired dealer in heavy equipment. So I have experience with hundreds of engines, diesel and gas. Iv cleared thousands of miles of ROWs and personally driven north of 2 million miles. Iv lost one engine. It wasn’t oil related. That includes drag racing. The latest scam in the automotive industry is the cylinder deactivation engine. I had one personally. I tested it multiple times. Saw no difference in fuel mileage with normal driving. They increased parts in the engine and externally to make the scam work. Lowering oil change intervals and raising oil capacity too. Some people by driving 60 or under seem to benefit from it. They don’t drive in the winter. Pick the roads and drive only certain conditions. And post their unrealistic MPGs.  Much like the auto manufacturers do to give you their MPG on the window sticker. All the while the manufacturers known for longevity are raising their oil change intervals. I experienced the early GM experiments and paid the price. If I want gas mileage I drive my other rides. If I want to drive a reliable truck I stay prior to the Frankenstein engine. Like my Avalanche. 

[Black02Silverado]

12 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Tech Bulletin on JB-7011 lifters for GM LS engines ... - Melling             Cut and paste into your browser. 

 

While this bulletin was posted before the Ecotec3 motor series for the LS series the Ecotec3 motors share this lifter, guide and basic VLOM/ECU strategy. Look it up yourself. 

 

Read it carefully. It is an oil related issue. Argue with Melling. They supply GM with OEM lifters. GM has a paper on this as well advising shorter OCI's. They are also in the process of DEXOS1Gen3 specs to reduce varnish and sludge below that of DEXOS1Gen2.  I wonder why? 

 

In addition to varnish and sludge, foaming, another oil related issue will cause a lifter failure. Bore wear is also an oil related issue addressed in this bulletin.  None of those things are design issues. All of them are lubrication MAINTENANCE issues

 

Two things are true. I wore a black sport jacket today and the sun came up...but the sun did not rise because I wore a black jacket. That is also true. What my neighbors/fathers/brothers Dodge/Ford/flying squirrel did has nothing to do with nothing GM.   

 

 I am pretty sure that Melling has a very good handle on this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is an issue with the DFM for the most part.  Especially when they go out at 5k miles from new.  Not even had time to build up any kind of oil varnish and such.  There are many posts on the FB group of issues all below 15k miles. 

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, diyer2 said:

everybody's smarter than the other guy.

 

There is the science and then there is the experience. Ever notice experience is always the last one at the table and always takes his seat immediately AFTERWARDS? Experience knows nothing until science speaks and then it just can't shut up. Cyber staking 

 

This issue at hand that is just killing peoples motors is the belief that OCI is an inflexible number that needs to be argued because somebody must be right? Well it isn't. Rules of thumb make money but not allot of sense. The exact same thing that moved the 'average' OCI from 500 miles to 7500 miles is now walking it back. Detergent levels, types and their effectiveness. ZDDP levels and base oil solvency. 

 

ZDDP for instance is not just the anti-wear agent, it is also the corrosion and anti-rust and most importantly the MAIN ANTIOXIDANT. Everyone is worried about neutralizing the acid but not so much how much of it is created. Lower ZDDP levels deplete more rapidly when there is less of them. Duh! I run out of water faster when I have less water...

 

Now in the name of LSPI they are backing out the calcium. So less water and a hole in the glass. 

 

ALL additives are sacrificial. They become either chemically neutered or mechanically tied up thus the result in your UOA tells you the horse has left the barn...not that he's one step from leaving. 

 

You have to run a few to 'see' the pattern YOUR oil and YOUR motor operated by YOUR method is making to find these limits OR hedge your bets and use great and change often OR disregard and joint a forum where you can share your experiences, whine and hate. 

 

If the sun sets will my shadow leave? I'm living the dream. Nightmares are dreams...right?  

[Grumpy Bear]

6 minutes ago, Black02Silverado said:

There is an issue with the DFM for the most part.  Especially when they go out at 5k miles from new.  Not even had time to build up any kind of oil varnish and such.  There are many posts on the FB group of issues all below 15k miles. 

 

There is a percentage of mechanical failure in ANY device made by ANYONE. Kind of the reason the Federal Government requires OEMS to supply a warranty. As true as your statement is...it is still mud in the water. Your warranty or the courts will handle defects in materials and workmanship but you have to treat it like your going to own it forever from day one. You can't start after the warranty has expired...damage done to one of the majority that a defect was not a part of. 

 

If I believed the FB experience was the majority I'd walk. They make it sound hopeless. You're in the oil business....is that what you want? A situation where your product will not make one bit of difference? I think not....Just say' n......

Edited June 24, 2021 by Grumpy Bear

[KARNUT]

23 minutes ago, Black02Silverado said:

There is an issue with the DFM for the most part.  Especially when they go out at 5k miles from new.  Not even had time to build up any kind of oil varnish and such.  There are many posts on the FB group of issues all below 15k miles. 

I have no problem with people who change their oil often. As you know Amsoil has oil for that. My problem is feeling the need to do it often to fix a manufacturers problem. Especially ifs there’s very little gain from the  manufacturers changes. I wonder if these same people would claim with the 5.7 GM diesel problem was infrequent oil changes. The GM engine prior to the cylinder deactivation was bulletproof. Even with 25K oil changes with Amsoil. I know because I did just that. Also the 4.6, 5.7, 6.0, 7.3 and 5.9 diesel. Multiple off road equipment Diesel engines.   The number is in the thousands. Reminds me during the covid. A radio program every ten minutes would pause with. It’s time to wash your hands.  

[TxVet33]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

There is the science and then there is the experience. Ever notice experience is always the last one at the table and always takes his seat immediately AFTERWARDS? Experience knows nothing until science speaks and then it just can't shut up. Cyber staking 

 

This issue at hand that is just killing peoples motors is the belief that OCI is an inflexible number that needs to be argued because somebody must be right? Well it isn't. Rules of thumb make money but not allot of sense. The exact same thing that moved the 'average' OCI from 500 miles to 7500 miles is now walking it back. Detergent levels, types and their effectiveness. ZDDP levels and base oil solvency. 

 

ZDDP for instance is not just the anti-wear agent, it is also the corrosion and anti-rust and most importantly the MAIN ANTIOXIDANT. Everyone is worried about neutralizing the acid but not so much how much of it is created. Lower ZDDP levels deplete more rapidly when there is less of them. Duh! I run out of water faster when I have less water...

 

Now in the name of LSPI they are backing out the calcium. So less water and a hole in the glass. 

 

ALL additives are sacrificial. They become either chemically neutered or mechanically tied up thus the result in your UOA tells you the horse has left the barn...not that he's one step from leaving. 

 

You have to run a few to 'see' the pattern YOUR oil and YOUR motor operated by YOUR method is making to find these limits OR hedge your bets and use great and change often OR disregard and joint a forum where you can share your experiences, whine and hate. 

 

If the sun sets will my shadow leave? I'm living the dream. Nightmares are dreams...right?  

Sorta like the jab.  Oops I didn’t mean to murder gramps with that science