Oil burning, where is it going?

[lucas287]

6 minutes ago, truckguy82 said:

I think you missed a key part

 

it only smokes a couple times when I haven’t driven it spirited in awhile.

 

when you’re WOT the ecu switches to open loop. Open loop means you’re not using sensor data and then adjusting based on those readings. The 02 sensors are bypassed. The fuel tables are pre-programmed and will be the same every time you put your foot down. If I was running rich, it would do it every time. I’m well aware of black smoke from running rich. I’m also well aware that a lot of cars produce black smoke when they first stomp the go pedal. This is not one of those circumstances.

 

i literally used to drive around with a laptop in my passenger seat for years and monitored the wideband afr, egt’s, oil pressure and temp, intake temp, intake pressure (fabbed up my own intake temp sensor setup)

 

granted it was obd1 and used a map sensor, so, maf’s, knock sensors, and multiple o2 sensors are greek to me

I, too, am very experienced here. I, too, drive around with a laptop in front seat. No need to patronize - just offering an opinion and counterpoint. 

[JONBLARC7]

1 hour ago, lucas287 said:

Maybe so! Hey @JONBLARC7 did you ever get yours to stop black smoking at WOT? Ran across a thread over on HP Tuners where you were trying to nail down EQ ratios to remedy it. 

 

were they direct injected?

Yes I lean it out.  Now it runs .87 to .88 on 93 octane and .88 to .89 on E85.

 

On 93 there is still some smoke but nothing like it was where it looked like a desiel on the hit.

 

On E85 it is pretty clean but E85 also burns much cleaner.

 

 

I didn't mention the rich thing because I know the Truckguy82 doesn't want to retune his truck.  But they are pig rich from the factory for a DI engine.  And without a wideband I put money on BB left the PE stock.

Edited April 6, 2021 by JONBLARC7

[truckguy82]

4 hours ago, JONBLARC7 said:

Yes I lean it out.  Now it runs .87 to .88 on 93 octane and .88 to .89 on E85.

 

On 93 there is still some smoke but nothing like it was where it looked like a desiel on the hit.

 

On E85 it is pretty clean but E85 also burns much cleaner.

 

 

I didn't mention the rich thing because I know the Truckguy82 doesn't want to retune his truck.  But they are pig rich from the factory for a DI engine.  And without a wideband I put money on BB left the PE stock.

Then why would it only do it if I have been driving gently for a few days.

 

if I go wot, it smokes, but if I do it 3 times, it wont blow out smoke anymore

 

the next day, it wont smoke if I do it again. That does not sound like running rich.

[JONBLARC7]

Is that back to back runs or run it hard then later that day run it hard again?

 

Mine did the same thing until I tuned it leaner.  Another guy on performancetrucks had the same tuner that did the original tune before I did all the work on it an learned to tune.  He had a L86 and told me he was getting black smoke out of the tail pipe at WOT.

[lucas287]

Sorry to derail the thread. The main issue is still the oil consumption...let's try to solve that problem! 

[truckguy82]

12 hours ago, JONBLARC7 said:

Is that back to back runs or run it hard then later that day run it hard again?

 

Mine did the same thing until I tuned it leaner.  Another guy on performancetrucks had the same tuner that did the original tune before I did all the work on it an learned to tune.  He had a L86 and told me he was getting black smoke out of the tail pipe at WOT.

Yeah I actually saw an l86 take off at a stoplight that wasn’t mine, so I got to witness it, his had black smoke too.

 

I figured it might be oil as well.

 

If I run it hard today, there will be black smoke, especially on the first pull. If I then run it hard again the following day, there won’t be any black smoke, (well not that I can see from my rear view)

 

it is A LOT of smoke when I go WOT after I haven’t done so for awhile. Like a freaking cloud. That’s why I think there is a reservoir of oil sitting somewhere that gets ingested at WOT. It doesn’t help that with the blackbear tune 50% throttle feels like WOT. So I’m not sure where the engagement point is for open loop to test if it’s just open loop fueling table thats causing it or it’s just huge amounts of airflow sucking some reservoir of oil.

Edited April 7, 2021 by truckguy82

[JONBLARC7]

I would think I would have more of a blue haze even if it was oil being built up.  I've seen a vette with basiclly the same mods as me, with the LT1 do the same thing too.

[Grumpy Bear]

I suppose you could start by isolating systems. First on the list would be the PCV system. 

 

 

Earls sells this cap which a breather filter can be screwed into. Then plug the fresh air vent between the air filter and off side valve cover. Disconnect and plug the line between the PCV valve and the manifold then run a hose, a road draft tube from the PCV valve to the ground/atmosphere. Reverting to circa 1950 type venting. Your just going to do this for as long as it takes to determine if this 'pooled oil' in the manifold is coming from crankcase vent and/or blow by from the rings. Several cycles so residual conditions don't fake the test out. Do what you do to make it smoke and see if it continues to smoke. If it does then you've eliminated crankcase carry over.  The PCV valve will prevent excessive case pressure. The spring isn't the strong and a few inches of water column pressure will allow the case to vent but keeps dirt out unlike the original draft tubes did. If the makes you nervous then fabricate a 'duck bill' such as was fitted to Royal Enfield Bullet motorcycles. OR buy one from an Enfield dealer. Dirt cheap. 

[KARNUT]

Motor L86
oil loss = about 1 quart every 2k miles
-happened since I bought the truck with 20k miles, now has 60k miles
-street tuned by justin at blackbear. When looking at the live data he said it definitely doesn’t look like its the rings. Not sure how he could tell that.
-i also don’t think its the rings...because if I take it easy on my truck for a few days, and then I go WOT, I get a ton of black smoke out of the tailpipe. But this doesn’t happen if I go WOT frequently. Which means in my theory is, the oil is collecting somewhere and then is getting sucked into the engine at WOT. Once I deplete the pool of oil, it stops smoking. Typically when vehicles have bad rings, it will happen every time you go WOT.
 
where the F is it going? It must be fixable without a rebuild if it’s not the rings and some peoples trucks don’t burn any oil.

I had two new vehicles fall under your usage. Both times was called with in acceptable limits. I had to put aside my normal OCD tendencies and accepted it. The car at 60K miles clogged the cats. Otherwise 130K miles and 7 years performed normally. The truck at 20K I added a S/C with 5LBS boost. It performed normally. Time didn’t give me chance to be OCD about it. I’m glad I didn’t.


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[JONBLARC7]

On 4/6/2021 at 2:33 PM, lucas287 said:

Maybe so! Hey @JONBLARC7 did you ever get yours to stop black smoking at WOT? Ran across a thread over on HP Tuners where you were trying to nail down EQ ratios to remedy it. 

 

were they direct injected?

I wanted to come back to this thread with a definite answer for blowing black smoke on 93.

 

Earlier in this thread I said I leaned it out and it did help some.  But I mainly run only E85 which burns reall clean.  So when I would go on a road trip I would load up with just 93.  And the black smoke is still there.  Not as bad as stock PE tables but still there.

 

So Lucas287 I don't know if you saw the thread on HP forum about "How far do you let you EOI drop".  Lots of good info on that thread.  I can post it if you like. 

 

Anyway I started logging my SOI.  Which is Start Of Injection for those who don't know.  Well on these DI motor the sweet spot NA is a SOI of 330.  I noticed on my wide open run it would jump up to high 350's then drop back down to 330 which is where it cleaned up durning the pull.  At high 350 it must still be injecting while the exhauust valve is starting to open causing the smoke.  So Higgs Boson (which is a very respect member on that forum) gave the advice to make the whole SOI table 280 and let all the back ground multipliers do there job to raise and calculate the the SOI on it own.

 

And Bam no more Black smoke and holding steady at .87 to .88 on the wide band on 93.  With the whole SOI table set at 280.  It will jump up to 320 or so now during a pull.  But like Higgs Boson said,  the whole truck just runs smoother now.

[lucas287]

On 8/3/2021 at 2:58 PM, JONBLARC7 said:

I wanted to come back to this thread with a definite answer for blowing black smoke on 93.

 

Earlier in this thread I said I leaned it out and it did help some.  But I mainly run only E85 which burns reall clean.  So when I would go on a road trip I would load up with just 93.  And the black smoke is still there.  Not as bad as stock PE tables but still there.

 

So Lucas287 I don't know if you saw the thread on HP forum about "How far do you let you EOI drop".  Lots of good info on that thread.  I can post it if you like. 

 

Anyway I started logging my SOI.  Which is Start Of Injection for those who don't know.  Well on these DI motor the sweet spot NA is a SOI of 330.  I noticed on my wide open run it would jump up to high 350's then drop back down to 330 which is where it cleaned up durning the pull.  At high 350 it must still be injecting while the exhauust valve is starting to open causing the smoke.  So Higgs Boson (which is a very respect member on that forum) gave the advice to make the whole SOI table 280 and let all the back ground multipliers do there job to raise and calculate the the SOI on it own.

 

And Bam no more Black smoke and holding steady at .87 to .88 on the wide band on 93.  With the whole SOI table set at 280.  It will jump up to 320 or so now during a pull.  But like Higgs Boson said,  the whole truck just runs smoother now.

 

That's awesome! Thanks for bringing that up! If it's advice from Higgs - I pay attention. I trust that he's cussed and fussed over it. 

 

I wonder how that works with the stock cam and stock VVT settings? Let me bounce this off the folks on here:

 

Let's say the stock cams retards 20 degrees at 1500 RPM and low load. That means the intake and exhaust valve will open 20 degrees "later" right with respect to straight up? With the stock SOI table, it's roughly correlated to cam advance/******. On the stock cal it appears that GM advances SOI when the cam retards. Again, talking low rpm/low load. You would think they'd spray fuel LATER, right? So, by setting SOI at 280 it might be 40 degrees LATER than stock, but to me that seems good. Less chance of detonation right? 

[Grumpy Bear]

On 4/6/2021 at 8:50 AM, truckguy82 said:

Also I found out the v6 uses a totally different pcv and afm manifold. Wonder if the v6’s are pretty much all oil consumption free.

 

The 4.3 PCV is set up just like the 6.0 in the drivers side valve cover. The 5.3 and 6.2 are routed differently but they all work alike. The VLOM's obviously services different cylinder groups but work identically and use the same solenoids/valves, screens, O rings and method of operation. 

 

I can't speak for all Ecotec3 V-6's  but mine uses so little between 5K OCI's it looks like zero. She's at 147,138 right now.

 

 

 

 

[M1ck3y]

I didn't read every reply so this may have been said already. I don't know whats causing your black smoke or oil usage, but an engine running rich will produce black smoke. It's un-burnt fuel, think rolling coal. As far as the pcv system goes you won't have any blow by enter the air intake, the valve cover's prevent this and do a good job. The only location you will see blow by enter is from the valley-intake manifold connection, which is also where the pcv valve is located. The intake manifold is rounded like a bowl on the bottom and oil does pool there. You can see it if you remove/open up your tb. But that being said I don't think that's your problem. They all collect oil there, mine included and I haven't seen black smoke since it was brand new starting in -30.

[JONBLARC7]

16 hours ago, lucas287 said:

 

That's awesome! Thanks for bringing that up! If it's advice from Higgs - I pay attention. I trust that he's cussed and fussed over it. 

 

I wonder how that works with the stock cam and stock VVT settings? Let me bounce this off the folks on here:

 

Let's say the stock cams retards 20 degrees at 1500 RPM and low load. That means the intake and exhaust valve will open 20 degrees "later" right with respect to straight up? With the stock SOI table, it's roughly correlated to cam advance/******. On the stock cal it appears that GM advances SOI when the cam retards. Again, talking low rpm/low load. You would think they'd spray fuel LATER, right? So, by setting SOI at 280 it might be 40 degrees LATER than stock, but to me that seems good. Less chance of detonation right? 

Remember just becasue you set it for 280 doesn't mean it spray's at 280.  In my simple mind the 6.2 computer it set up to run the SOI at a certin point on 93.  Then when you enable E85 the SOI mulitpliers for E85 advance it to far.  And you get up into the upper 350's.

 

If it was me I would just log your SOI pirmary and then you'll know how far it is advancing immediately.  Also Higgs said to him 280 seem to land right in the middle of where it needs to be.

[JONBLARC7]

10 hours ago, M1ck3y said:

I didn't read every reply so this may have been said already. I don't know whats causing your black smoke or oil usage, but an engine running rich will produce black smoke. It's un-burnt fuel, think rolling coal. As far as the pcv system goes you won't have any blow by enter the air intake, the valve cover's prevent this and do a good job. The only location you will see blow by enter is from the valley-intake manifold connection, which is also where the pcv valve is located. The intake manifold is rounded like a bowl on the bottom and oil does pool there. You can see it if you remove/open up your tb. But that being said I don't think that's your problem. They all collect oil there, mine included and I haven't seen black smoke since it was brand new starting in -30.

In my situation your right and wrong. LOL

 

Your wrong because I leaned mine out to .87 to .88 lamaba and it still blew smoke on 93.

 

Your right because even though the wideband was reading .88 the SOI was injecting to long and spiting raw ruel out of the exhaust valve and causing black smoke.  But this wasn't effecting the wideband.