Tire Rotation

[swathdiver]

On 2/16/2025 at 7:14 AM, KARNUT said:

Switching to the other side would require just a few more steps. Another recent development by Discount tire if you just buy two they insist you put them on back. I’ll ask them about their rotation procedure next time I’m there.

 

The tire guys get confused.  I give them a print out and even chalk the tires and they still get confused.

 

About 15 years or so ago this became a thing, putting new tires on the rear regardless of drive type.  I disagree with it, even after seeing their videos trying to justify it.  I was a tire professional many years ago.

 

 

 

On 2/16/2025 at 9:57 AM, PhilB said:

So what is the rationale for different rotation pattern between FWD and RWD vehicles?  I would think that as long as you're crisscrossing the tires, and are consistent in the rotation pattern, it wouldn't matter.  Just curious...

 

Tire wear is different at each wheel position.  Having each tire spend time at each position ensures that all tires wear evenly.  

 

I had an upper ball joint that was going and by following the RWD rotation, all of the tires eventually took on the same outside wear pattern after 55K miles rather than having to replace 2 on one side in half the time.  They would have gone longer had father time not interfered, they were dry rotted.

 

Maybe there is some benefit to crossing the tires as they move up front because of the additional weight bias on FWD vehicles which prioritizes even tire wear.

 

For RWD, having the tires move straight forward from the rear would offer a better ride and less chance of a tire pull.  

[PhilB]

7 hours ago, swathdiver said:

Tire wear is different at each wheel position.  Having each tire spend time at each position ensures that all tires wear evenly.  

 

I had an upper ball joint that was going and by following the RWD rotation, all of the tires eventually took on the same outside wear pattern after 55K miles rather than having to replace 2 on one side in half the time.

I understand that each tire will spend time at each position.  Assuming tire rotation every 6K miles, it will take 18K miles for every tire to be at every position, and after 24K miles the tires will be in the same starting position. 

 

I am just wondering about the front to back and back to front difference for FWD and RWD, respectively, rationale.  Maybe what's clouding my thoughts is that I rotate the tires frequently so as to not get as much detrimental tire wear from any one position.

[Dren Show]

A quick read through this topic had

me thinking you can strive for best possible tire wear and life.  If you pay to have your tires rotated then there is another variable you need to consider.  At some point there will be a crossover where the more you spend in tire rotation won’t pay off in tire life.  If you can do the rotation yourself then that crossover point will be at a different and lean more toward doing the tire rotations.

[KARNUT]

23 minutes ago, Dren Show said:

A quick read through this topic had

me thinking you can strive for best possible tire wear and life.  If you pay to have your tires rotated then there is another variable you need to consider.  At some point there will be a crossover where the more you spend in tire rotation won’t pay off in tire life.  If you can do the rotation yourself then that crossover point will be at a different and lean more toward doing the tire rotations.

Discount tire does it for free. If your vehicle is maintained and you live where the roads are maintained you don’t need to do it that much. I don’t run my tires to the wear bar. I rarely rotate if ever. I don’t experience uneven wear for the length of time I keep tires. I just did it the first time on the Odyssey to check out a new Discount tire by me. At 30K miles on the tires. No uneven wear. I don’t cheep out on tires either. Maybe that’s the difference.

[Grumpy Bear]

First set of tires on Pepper went 125,000 miles and I replaced them because they 'dated out'. Still had 5/32" of very even wear. The tire was a Bridgestone Dueler 684 II that had a 30 K warranty and rated 360 BB if my memory serves me. 

 

Rotated every 5K (NC where I was having services done if done with service) (Cross to drive)

Balanced every 10K (Cheap and spin balance only, tape weights only)

Tire pressures checked about twice a week and more if rapidly changing temperatures. 

Alignments checked twice a year and adjusted as needed. (Did three over this span and two of those due to modifications I made to the suspension).

 

Second set didn't fair as well. Pirelli Scorpion Verde All Season 780 AA. Shop I was using closed and it took me quite a while to find a capable shop to replace such services. 60K miles to replacement which is the warranty on this tire. So no complaints but....

 

Went 1 rotation of 20K while the alignment was just a hair off (toe) which knickered up the inside of the front left tire enough to make some noise but not enough to be a safety worry. Wear otherwise was quite even and still above the wear 3/32" wear limit but this set weathered poorly cracking between the treads and about the bead area. And they did this quite early on. Outside missing one the same schedule used as before, different provider. 

 

Four parts to wear. 1.) Man 2.) Machine 3.) Environment 

I include services with Man and I include Tire choice with Machine.  Miss any of these and tire wear accelerates.

 

I speak only for me for this next part. The ROI on my tires is human life. Brakes don't stop trucks. Brakes stop wheels, tires stop trucks. Steering wheels don't turn vehicles they turn wheels, tires turn vehicles.  They are "Where the rubber meets the road".  To do their job well they have to be perfect. I will not exchange life for money or difficulty of service or convenience. Rant over. 

 

I currently buy my tires and have my tires serviced at a Belle Tire. I get rotations free. Spin balance free. I spend $30 for the alignment upgrade which gives me 3 checks per year at N/C. I have a compressor and a good gauge. It cost me nothing but time to get this right. I get great results even with poor tire choices. YMMV.  

[KARNUT]

3 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

First set of tires on Pepper went 125,000 miles and I replaced them because they 'dated out'. Still had 5/32" of very even wear. The tire was a Bridgestone Dueler 684 II that had a 30 K warranty and rated 360 BB if my memory serves me. 

 

Rotated every 5K (NC where I was having services done if done with service) (Cross to drive)

Balanced every 10K (Cheap and spin balance only, tape weights only)

Tire pressures checked about twice a week and more if rapidly changing temperatures. 

Alignments checked twice a year and adjusted as needed. (Did three over this span and two of those due to modifications I made to the suspension).

 

Second set didn't fair as well. Pirelli Scorpion Verde All Season 780 AA. Shop I was using closed and it took me quite a while to find a capable shop to replace such services. 60K miles to replacement which is the warranty on this tire. So no complaints but....

 

Went 1 rotation of 20K while the alignment was just a hair off (toe) which knickered up the inside of the front left tire enough to make some noise but not enough to be a safety worry. Wear otherwise was quite even and still above the wear 3/32" wear limit but this set weathered poorly cracking between the treads and about the bead area. And they did this quite early on. Outside missing one the same schedule used as before, different provider. 

 

Four parts to wear. 1.) Man 2.) Machine 3.) Environment 

I include services with Man and I include Tire choice with Machine.  Miss any of these and tire wear accelerates.

 

I speak only for me for this next part. The ROI on my tires is human life. Brakes don't stop trucks. Brakes stop wheels, tires stop trucks. Steering wheels don't turn vehicles they turn wheels, tires turn vehicles.  They are "Where the rubber meets the road".  To do their job well they have to be perfect. I will not exchange life for money or difficulty of service or convenience. Rant over. 

 

I currently buy my tires and have my tires serviced at a Belle Tire. I get rotations free. Spin balance free. I spend $30 for the alignment upgrade which gives me 3 checks per year at N/C. I have a compressor and a good gauge. It cost me nothing but time to get this right. I get great results even with poor tire choices. YMMV.  

That’s borders on compulsive. What ever works right? Let me ask this. How much stress can lug studs take with the constant removal and reinstall of the nuts. What’s the stress, stretching point of failure? I remember when replacing head gaskets on a 5.7 diesel Oldsmobile. They insisted on replacing the bolts after just one time. I always take my TQ wrench to them just to be sure. The only thing I’m really diligent about anymore. Don’t want to lose that wheel, right?

[Another JR]

16 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

That’s borders on compulsive. What ever works right? Let me ask this. How much stress can lug studs take with the constant removal and reinstall of the nuts. What’s the stress, stretching point of failure? I remember when replacing head gaskets on a 5.7 diesel Oldsmobile. They insisted on replacing the bolts after just one time. I always take my TQ wrench to them just to be sure. The only thing I’m really diligent about anymore. Don’t want to lose that wheel, right?

Head bolts are often designed as “torque to yield,” where the bolts are intentionally torqued into the range where permanent deformation (stretching) of the bolt occurs. This is done in an attempt to achieve more uniform clamping force on all the head bolts.
 

Wheel bolts and studs are not torqued into that stress range. If you follow the torque specs for your wheel bolts/nuts you will not cause significant fatigue damage in a hundred or so wheel removals. 

Edited February 19, 2025 by Another JR
Typo

[KARNUT]

30 minutes ago, Another JR said:

Head bolts are often designed as “torque to yield,” where the bolts are intentionally torqued into the range where permanent deformation (stretching) of the bolt occurs. This is done in an attempt to achieve more uniform clamping force on all the head bolts.
 

Wheel bolts and studs are not torqued into that stress range. If you follow the torque specs for your wheel bolts/nuts you will not cause significant fatigue damage in a hundred or so wheel removals. 

I was just messing with him. He has a habit of being condescending. My way is better than yours. Na na naana. Even if he doesn’t realize it. Or does he. I rotate my tires every 5K mile so I have a perfect patch on the road, please. 

[Grumpy Bear]

Yea, what Jon says.  

Edited February 19, 2025 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

1 minute ago, KARNUT said:

I was just messing with him. He has a habit of being condescending. My way is better than yours. Na na naana. Even if he doesn’t realize it. Or does he. I rotate my tires every 5K mile so I have a perfect patch on the road, please. 

 

I think you need to look up the meaning of Condescending.  

 

Quote me were I said my way was better? WHAT DID I SAY DISRUPTER?

 

I said "This is what I do, This is why I do it. This is the result I got. Period.  You were never mentioned nor even implied. 

 

Why borrow trouble? 

[KARNUT]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

I think you need to look up the meaning of Condescending.  

 

Quote me were I said my way was better? WHAT DID I SAY DISRUPTER?

 

I said "This is what I do, This is why I do it. This is the result I got. Period.  You were never mentioned nor even implied. 

 

Why borrow trouble? 

There’s that pot thing again. Maybe you should read your rant again. Implies if others don’t do it your way there’re not as safe as you. And it happens to come after me saying my tires wear fine with minimal rotation. So you invite trouble. And you’re sneaky about it. I would never run tires more than half tread on my trip vehicle. Does that make me more safe? Who knows? I noticed it doesn’t hydroplane that way. I don’t stand up on a rant box about it. I state an opinion. 

Edited February 19, 2025 by KARNUT

[KARNUT]

7 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

There’s that pot thing again. Maybe you should read your rant again. Implies if others don’t do it your way there’re not as safe as you. And it happens to come after me saying my tires wear fine with minimal rotation. So you invite trouble. And you’re sneaky about it. I would never run tires more than half tread on my trip vehicle. Does that make me more safe? Who knows? I noticed it doesn’t hydroplane that way. I don’t stand up on a rant box about it. I state an opinion. 

I nail the meaning perfectly 

Edited February 19, 2025 by KARNUT

[Another JR]

Can I try to change the subject a little?

 

I definitely agree with the approach of starting to shop for new tires well before getting to the wear limit. My experience has been that wet traction, snow traction, and off-pavement traction noticeably fall off in the last third of the tread depth if not before. 

[Grumpy Bear]

5 hours ago, KARNUT said:

There’s that pot thing again. Maybe you should read your rant again. Implies if others don’t do it your way there’re not as safe as you. And it happens to come after me saying my tires wear fine with minimal rotation. So you invite trouble. And you’re sneaky about it. I would never run tires more than half tread on my trip vehicle. Does that make me more safe? Who knows? I noticed it doesn’t hydroplane that way. I don’t stand up on a rant box about it. I state an opinion. 

 

Ya know, you can't say a thing true, right? Said what I said it said. What I do, what my results are. Not a hint of "IF you don't do it my way". 

 

6 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

I speak only for me for this next part......

 

6 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

YMMV.  

 

You need to QUOTE my statement of condescension. I can't seem to find it. 

 

Your statement is mendacious. (You like big words, right)? 

Edited February 19, 2025 by Grumpy Bear

[Capt Bob]

4 hours ago, Another JR said:

Can I try to change the subject a little?

 

I definitely agree with the approach of starting to shop for new tires well before getting to the wear limit. My experience has been that wet traction, snow traction, and off-pavement traction noticeably fall off in the last third of the tread depth if not before. 

I’ll agree with that in that I use that parameter to begin a new tire replacement cycle. Having spent my whole life in Florida, it doesn’t often snow (January 2025 aside) it certainly rains a lot. I like Michelin tires and they work very well in the rain so..

When they start sliding more than usual, I start shopping. I do rotate about 7500 and use the manual procedure as well as lifting at the pumpkin.

Edited February 19, 2025 by Capt Bob