Low Mileage Oil Change Interval?

obe-kenobe · July 26, 2009

The wife and I have 3 vehicles. We don't put a whole lot of miles on them.

In the past 12 months, I added maybe 3000 miles on my Avalanche and less

than 2000 miles on my Camaro.

If I follow the Oil Life Indicator on my Avalanche, that could be 18 months

between oil changes.

If I follow the Owner's Manual on my Camaro (it calls for 3000 miles or every

3 months), that would only be 500 miles between oil changes.

That's kinda extreme for both. I don't drive short trips. I just don't drive a lot.

I do use Mobil-1 Full Synthetic oil. So, should I change the oil regardless (maybe

once a year) or is there any recommendation you guys can think of?

brims · July 26, 2009

I think it says if you follow the OLM and the light doesn't come on to change once a year. I think the 3 month thing is a little outdated.

Matt_ · July 26, 2009

I would change it every 6 months.

When an engine sits a lot, condensation can accumulate and get in the oil. Engines that are run daily burn this off so it's a non-issue.

WilliamBos · July 26, 2009

I would change it every 6 months.

When an engine sits a lot, condensation can accumulate and get in the oil. Engines that are run daily burn this off so it's a non-issue.

I agree. The sludge deposits can be a killer. Changing twice yearly is cheap insurance.

Fyrcaptain · July 26, 2009

That's why I use M1 Truck & SUV oil......for the additive package..........3500 per year for me.....once a year

"I would change it every 6 months"

"When an engine sits a lot, condensation can accumulate and get in the oil. Engines that are run daily burn this off so it's a non-issue".

OLM takes all of that into consideration

"I agree. The sludge deposits can be a killer. Changing twice yearly is cheap insurance".

OLM.........From a prior thread.........

One thing I can touch on and clear up.....the GM oil life monitor operation and my statement that ZDP (or ZDDP as you tend to call it here...most of the API literature just sticks to ZDP so I tend to use that) depletion is the basis for oil deterioration.

My spelling is poor but ZDP stands for zinc dialkyldithiophosphate which , as it sounds, is an anti-wear compound comprised of zinc and phosphorus.

ZDP is dispersed in the oil so as to be at a potential wear site if a surface asperity happens to break thru the oil film thickness causing the dreaded metal-to-metal contact. A molecule of ZDP must be present at that moment to prevent microwelding at the contact site which will cause material transfer, scuffing, scoring, wear and catostrophic failure. The concentration of ZDP in the oil will determine if there is ZDP present to work it's magic. The greater the concentration...the more likely a molecule of ZDP will be there...and vice versa.

By nature, ZDP is sacrifical. As ZDP is "used up" at a wear site to prevent micorwelding the concentration of ZDP decreases.... So...if you measure the ZDP concentration in engine oil in a running engine it will decrease at linear rate based on engine revolutions. Any given engine has a certain number of high potential wear areas where metal-to-metal contact could occur due to reduced film thickness and/or surface asperities....areas such as rubbing element cam followers, distributor gears, rocker arm pivots, push rod tips, etc...... The more of these areas the more ZDP depletion. The more often these features come in contact the greater the ZDP depletion. That is why, generally speaking, ZDP concentration in the oil, for any given engine, will decrease at a fairly linear rate when plotted versus cummulative engine revolutions. The more times it turns the more contact the more chance for wear the greater the depletion. This is as much of a fact as I could quote ever and is really not speculation or anything. It is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in many studies. That is why it is ONE of the basis for determining oil life remaining and why it is THE basic premis of the GM oil life algorithm. It is only ONE of the things that determines oil life...but it is the one thing that can be tied to engine operation in a linear fashion and estimated very accurately by accumulating engine revolutions via a counter.

The GM engine oil life monitor counts engine revolutions and accumulates the number for the basis of the oil life calculation. It then adds deterioration factors for operating temperature, start up temperature, soak times, ambient, coolant temperature, etc... There are a LOT of factors that "adjust" or affect the slope of the deterioration but the fundamental deterioration is traced back to the ZDP depletion that is inescapable with engine revolutions. The specific rate of ZDP depletion is readily measurable for any given engine so that is the fundamental item that is first calibrated for the oil life algorithm to tailor it specifically to that engine.

You would obviously like to get the oil out of the engine before the ZDP concentration gets so low that it is ineffective at being at the right place at the right time and preventing engine wear so that becomes the long term limit on oil life for that application.

The other things that determine oil life such a acid build up, oxidation, petane insuluables such as silicon from dust/dirt, carbon or soot build up from the EGR in blowby, water contamination, fuel contamination, etc.... are all modeled by the multipliers or deterioration factors that "adjust" the immediate slope of the line defined by the engine revolution counter as those items can be modeled in other ways and accounted for in the immediate slope of the ZDP depletion line.

The algorithm was developed over the course of many years by several lubrication experts at GM Fuels and Lubes, spearheaded by Doctor Shirley Schwartz who holds the patents (with GM) for the algorithm and the oil life montitor. I had the luck of working directly with Dr. Schwartz when the idea of the oil life monitor first progressed from the theoretical/lab stage to real world testing/development/validation. There were fleets of cars operated under all conditions that deteriorate the oil life for any and every reason and , thru oil sampling and detailed analysis of the oil condition, the algorithm was developed, fine tuned and validated to be the most accurate way invented yet to recommend an oil change interval by. As just one example, I have seen cars driven side-by-side on trips, one towing a trailer and one not, for instance, to prove the effectiveness of the oil life monitor in deteriorating the oil at a faster rate just because of the higher load, higher average RPM, higher temps, etc...and it works flawlessly.

The oil life monitor is so effective because: it is customized for that specific vehicle/engine, it takes everything into account that deteriorates the oil, it is ALWAYS working so as to take into account THAT INDIVIDUAL'S driving schedule, and it tailors the oil change to that schedule and predicts, on an ongoing basis, the oil life remaining so that that specific individual can plan an oil change accordingly.

No other system can do this that effectively.

One thing is that I know personally from years of testing and thousands of oil analysis that the oil life algorithm works. There is simply no argument to the contrary. If you don't believe me, fine, but, trust me, it works. It is accurate because it has been calibrated for each specific engine it is installed on and there is considerable testing and validation of the oil life monitor on that specific application. NOt something that oil companies or Amsoil do. They generalize....the oil life monitor is very specific for that application.

Oil condition sensors in some BMW and Mercedes products are useful, also. They have their limitations, though, as they can be blind to some contaminates and can, themselves, be contaminated by certain markers or constituents of certain engine oils. Oil condition sensors can only react to the specific oil at that moment and they add complexity, cost and another potential item to fail. One other beauty of the GM oil life monitor is that it is all software and does not add any mechanical complexity, mass, wiring or potential failure mechanism.

There is considerable safety factor in the GM oil life monitor. Typically, I would say, there is a 2:1 safety factor in the slope of the ZDP depletion curve....in other words, zero percent oil life per the ZDP depletion is not zero ZDP but twice the concentration of ZDP considered critical for THAT engine to operate under all conditions reliably with no wear. This is always a subject of discussion as to just how low do you want the ZDP to get before the oil is "worn out" if this is the deciding factor for oil life. We would tend to be on the conservative side. If the oil life is counting down on a slope that would recommend a 10K change interval then there is probably 20K oil life before the ZDP is catostrophically depleted....not that you would want to go there...but reason why many people are successful in running those change intervals.

Please...NOT ALL ENGINES ARE THE SAME. The example above is an excellent practical justification of why you would want to add EOS and change the 15W40 Delvac in the muscle car at 3000 miles max and yet can run the Northstar to 12500 easily on conventional oil. You must treat each engine and situation differently and what applies to one does not retroactively apply to others. This is where Amsoil falls short in my book by proposing long change intervals in most everything if you use their oil. It just doesn't work that way. You can run the Amsoil to 12500 with no concerns whatsoever in the late model Northstar because even the oil life monitor tells you that for conventional oil off the shelf. Would I do that to the 502 in my 66 Chevelle...NO WAY. Amsoil says I can though. Wrong.

There are entire SAE papers written on the GM oil life monitor and one could write a book on it so it is hard to touch on all aspects of it in a single post. Hopefully we hit the high spots. Realize that a GREAT deal of time, work and energy went into developing the oil life monitor and it has received acclaim from engineering organizations, petroleum organizations, environmental groups all across the board. It is not some widget invented in a week and tacked onto the car.

The oil life monitor is not under the control of a summer intern at GM Powertrain per an earlier post....LOL Not that a summer intern wasn't compiling calibrations or doing a project on it but is under control of the lube group with a variety of engineers directly responsible that have immediate responsibility for the different engine families and engine groups. The idea that a summer intern was responsible for or handling the oil life monitor is ludicrous.....LOL LOL LOL

androgelrx · July 26, 2009

Since my new '09 Silverado was actually built on 08/08, this means that the truck has sits for a long time on the dealer's lot. I have a little over 400 miles in it right now. Should I go ahead and dump the oil at 500 or 1000? I'm going with Pennzoil Platinum w/ the next oil change and a NAPA Gold filter.

WilliamBos · July 26, 2009

That's why I use M1 Truck & SUV oil......for the additive package..........3500 per year for me.....once a year

"I would change it every 6 months"

"When an engine sits a lot, condensation can accumulate and get in the oil. Engines that are run daily burn this off so it's a non-issue".

OLM takes all of that into consideration

"I agree. The sludge deposits can be a killer. Changing twice yearly is cheap insurance".

OLM.........From a prior thread.........

One thing I can touch on and clear up.....the GM oil life monitor operation and my statement that ZDP (or ZDDP as you tend to call it here...most of the API literature just sticks to ZDP so I tend to use that) depletion is the basis for oil deterioration.

My spelling is poor but ZDP stands for zinc dialkyldithiophosphate which , as it sounds, is an anti-wear compound comprised of zinc and phosphorus.

ZDP is dispersed in the oil so as to be at a potential wear site if a surface asperity happens to break thru the oil film thickness causing the dreaded metal-to-metal contact. A molecule of ZDP must be present at that moment to prevent microwelding at the contact site which will cause material transfer, scuffing, scoring, wear and catostrophic failure. The concentration of ZDP in the oil will determine if there is ZDP present to work it's magic. The greater the concentration...the more likely a molecule of ZDP will be there...and vice versa.

By nature, ZDP is sacrifical. As ZDP is "used up" at a wear site to prevent micorwelding the concentration of ZDP decreases.... So...if you measure the ZDP concentration in engine oil in a running engine it will decrease at linear rate based on engine revolutions. Any given engine has a certain number of high potential wear areas where metal-to-metal contact could occur due to reduced film thickness and/or surface asperities....areas such as rubbing element cam followers, distributor gears, rocker arm pivots, push rod tips, etc...... The more of these areas the more ZDP depletion. The more often these features come in contact the greater the ZDP depletion. That is why, generally speaking, ZDP concentration in the oil, for any given engine, will decrease at a fairly linear rate when plotted versus cummulative engine revolutions. The more times it turns the more contact the more chance for wear the greater the depletion. This is as much of a fact as I could quote ever and is really not speculation or anything. It is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in many studies. That is why it is ONE of the basis for determining oil life remaining and why it is THE basic premis of the GM oil life algorithm. It is only ONE of the things that determines oil life...but it is the one thing that can be tied to engine operation in a linear fashion and estimated very accurately by accumulating engine revolutions via a counter.

The GM engine oil life monitor counts engine revolutions and accumulates the number for the basis of the oil life calculation. It then adds deterioration factors for operating temperature, start up temperature, soak times, ambient, coolant temperature, etc... There are a LOT of factors that "adjust" or affect the slope of the deterioration but the fundamental deterioration is traced back to the ZDP depletion that is inescapable with engine revolutions. The specific rate of ZDP depletion is readily measurable for any given engine so that is the fundamental item that is first calibrated for the oil life algorithm to tailor it specifically to that engine.

You would obviously like to get the oil out of the engine before the ZDP concentration gets so low that it is ineffective at being at the right place at the right time and preventing engine wear so that becomes the long term limit on oil life for that application.

The other things that determine oil life such a acid build up, oxidation, petane insuluables such as silicon from dust/dirt, carbon or soot build up from the EGR in blowby, water contamination, fuel contamination, etc.... are all modeled by the multipliers or deterioration factors that "adjust" the immediate slope of the line defined by the engine revolution counter as those items can be modeled in other ways and accounted for in the immediate slope of the ZDP depletion line.

The algorithm was developed over the course of many years by several lubrication experts at GM Fuels and Lubes, spearheaded by Doctor Shirley Schwartz who holds the patents (with GM) for the algorithm and the oil life montitor. I had the luck of working directly with Dr. Schwartz when the idea of the oil life monitor first progressed from the theoretical/lab stage to real world testing/development/validation. There were fleets of cars operated under all conditions that deteriorate the oil life for any and every reason and , thru oil sampling and detailed analysis of the oil condition, the algorithm was developed, fine tuned and validated to be the most accurate way invented yet to recommend an oil change interval by. As just one example, I have seen cars driven side-by-side on trips, one towing a trailer and one not, for instance, to prove the effectiveness of the oil life monitor in deteriorating the oil at a faster rate just because of the higher load, higher average RPM, higher temps, etc...and it works flawlessly.

The oil life monitor is so effective because: it is customized for that specific vehicle/engine, it takes everything into account that deteriorates the oil, it is ALWAYS working so as to take into account THAT INDIVIDUAL'S driving schedule, and it tailors the oil change to that schedule and predicts, on an ongoing basis, the oil life remaining so that that specific individual can plan an oil change accordingly.

No other system can do this that effectively.

One thing is that I know personally from years of testing and thousands of oil analysis that the oil life algorithm works. There is simply no argument to the contrary. If you don't believe me, fine, but, trust me, it works. It is accurate because it has been calibrated for each specific engine it is installed on and there is considerable testing and validation of the oil life monitor on that specific application. NOt something that oil companies or Amsoil do. They generalize....the oil life monitor is very specific for that application.

Oil condition sensors in some BMW and Mercedes products are useful, also. They have their limitations, though, as they can be blind to some contaminates and can, themselves, be contaminated by certain markers or constituents of certain engine oils. Oil condition sensors can only react to the specific oil at that moment and they add complexity, cost and another potential item to fail. One other beauty of the GM oil life monitor is that it is all software and does not add any mechanical complexity, mass, wiring or potential failure mechanism.

There is considerable safety factor in the GM oil life monitor. Typically, I would say, there is a 2:1 safety factor in the slope of the ZDP depletion curve....in other words, zero percent oil life per the ZDP depletion is not zero ZDP but twice the concentration of ZDP considered critical for THAT engine to operate under all conditions reliably with no wear. This is always a subject of discussion as to just how low do you want the ZDP to get before the oil is "worn out" if this is the deciding factor for oil life. We would tend to be on the conservative side. If the oil life is counting down on a slope that would recommend a 10K change interval then there is probably 20K oil life before the ZDP is catostrophically depleted....not that you would want to go there...but reason why many people are successful in running those change intervals.

Please...NOT ALL ENGINES ARE THE SAME. The example above is an excellent practical justification of why you would want to add EOS and change the 15W40 Delvac in the muscle car at 3000 miles max and yet can run the Northstar to 12500 easily on conventional oil. You must treat each engine and situation differently and what applies to one does not retroactively apply to others. This is where Amsoil falls short in my book by proposing long change intervals in most everything if you use their oil. It just doesn't work that way. You can run the Amsoil to 12500 with no concerns whatsoever in the late model Northstar because even the oil life monitor tells you that for conventional oil off the shelf. Would I do that to the 502 in my 66 Chevelle...NO WAY. Amsoil says I can though. Wrong.

There are entire SAE papers written on the GM oil life monitor and one could write a book on it so it is hard to touch on all aspects of it in a single post. Hopefully we hit the high spots. Realize that a GREAT deal of time, work and energy went into developing the oil life monitor and it has received acclaim from engineering organizations, petroleum organizations, environmental groups all across the board. It is not some widget invented in a week and tacked onto the car.

The oil life monitor is not under the control of a summer intern at GM Powertrain per an earlier post....LOL Not that a summer intern wasn't compiling calibrations or doing a project on it but is under control of the lube group with a variety of engineers directly responsible that have immediate responsibility for the different engine families and engine groups. The idea that a summer intern was responsible for or handling the oil life monitor is ludicrous.....LOL LOL LOL

Well that is nice to hear. Thanks for taking time to explain. I change by mileage/OLM monitor status. I try not to let it hit zero before changing, but from what you have just said, am I ok to wait until 0%??

Matt_ · July 26, 2009

I don't care what the OLM says... id still change it every 6 months for piece of mind. Does the OLM know if the truck is sitting in an area of the country with extreme humidity? Or will it change then if that truck is moved to a place that has dry heat instead?

I'm sure the OLM does a great job... but my opinion and recommendation is to change it every 6 months if its sitting that much. Less than $100 a year to ensure 100% that you have fresh/good oil in our $30k+ trucks... like said = cheap insurance IMO.

cujo8 · July 27, 2009

I am also using Mobile-1 synthetic oil and I just changed my oil today at 5000 miles and the OLM didn't tell me to do it. BTW the oil coming out of the crankcase was black! The oil may have not broken down, but it was very dirty and dirt = wear. Some people say just change the filter and top off the oil, but if I'm going to get under my truck I might as well change the oil while I'm there. This is cheap insurance to make sure your engine lasts and will save you more money in the long run. So with your low yearly mileage I agree that a twice a year oil change interval is the way to go.

qwk93ta · July 27, 2009

Since my new '09 Silverado was actually built on 08/08, this means that the truck has sits for a long time on the dealer's lot. I have a little over 400 miles in it right now. Should I go ahead and dump the oil at 500 or 1000? I'm going with Pennzoil Platinum w/ the next oil change and a NAPA Gold filter.

My Silverado was built in 1/09 and I bought it 6/1/09.....I changed the oil at 500 miles, I'm using Mobil 1 full syn oil. I would change your oil!!!!

music · July 27, 2009

I'm sure the OLM does a great job... but my opinion and recommendation is to change it every 6 months if its sitting that much.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is to drive a vehicle at least once per week and bring to full temp. Dry seals = bad. Doing so should also eliminate concerns about moisture buildup, and also keeps everything lubed.

androgelrx · July 27, 2009

Since my new '09 Silverado was actually built on 08/08, this means that the truck has sits for a long time on the dealer's lot. I have a little over 400 miles in it right now. Should I go ahead and dump the oil at 500 or 1000? I'm going with Pennzoil Platinum w/ the next oil change and a NAPA Gold filter.

My Silverado was built in 1/09 and I bought it 6/1/09.....I changed the oil at 500 miles, I'm using Mobil 1 full syn oil. I would change your oil!!!!

Thanks for the quick reply. I'm going to change it on Friday then since I'm off that day. The truck will have about 500 miles on it by then. The oil can't be in that good of a condition since it has been in the truck for about a year now.

brims · July 27, 2009

I am also using Mobile-1 synthetic oil and I just changed my oil today at 5000 miles and the ALM didn't tell me to do it. BTW the oil coming out of the crankcase was black! The oil may have not broken down, but it was very dirty and dirt = wear. Some people say just change the filter and top off the oil, but if I'm going to get under my truck I might as well change the oil while I'm there. This is cheap insurance to make sure your engine lasts and will save you more money in the long run. So with your low yearly mileage I agree that a twice a year oil change interval is the way to go.

I would run away fast from anyone that says to just drop the filter and top off for an oil change. An oil change is just that, to change as much of the oil as reasonably possible. You might get 1 quart out of 6 out with a filter change.

Spurshot · July 27, 2009

I think the rec to drive the vehicles regularly is a good one. It charges the batteries, turns all bearings in the driveline, and burns off moisture accumulating in the oil. If you live in an arid climate, I'd say once a yr is fine for a max interval on the oil, probably could to the OLM indication. If you live in a wet climate or one where there is a cold winter, I'd probably change it just after the winter. Make an effort to drive them regularly! That's what they're for. All these trucks will eventually have lawnmowers in the bed and 4 different size tires on them. Enjoy them now.