Water Heaters

becker87 · January 29, 2011

Anybody have one up north? I have heard that in the cold winter temps they can't keep up with heating enough water. Can they support a dishwasher and a shower at the same time? Or two showers? Any help would be great, I think i need a new water heater and would like to go with a tankless because i think it would save me money in the long run, that is if it can keep up with my hot water needs.

txab · January 29, 2011

If you buy one that is sized properly you should have no problems. It all depends on how much you want to spend. If you have gas fired currently your payback time is huge. Tankless seem to better for electric savings. I've installed several gas units for people with basically no change in savings. Keep in mind all the upgrades that are involved with tankless units. Larger electrical service for one. With gas usually need larger gas service to the existing location as well as upgraded venting materials. Do your homework and see what all expenses are involved.

blevenson · January 29, 2011

Always thought tankless instant hot water heaters were the way to go, but I recently have spent a significant amount of time in a house with that setup and short pipe runs from the unit to point of use (10-15 ft max). The water is hot and it keeps up with the temps we have been seeing (in the 15-30 F degree range with some single digit nights), however be prepared to stand around and wait for hot water everytime you want to use it. You will find yourself washing your hands in cold water because you dont want to wait the 2 min with the water running for hot water....

Other than the wait time, it is a nice system.

becker87 · January 29, 2011

Thanks for the replies guys. To me it just seems that over time the savings would be pretty good, because my water heater is constantly running, but maybe that is because it is a shitty one or was installed incorrectly. Im having a guy coming over on Monday to tell me my options and what is wrong with the current one.

GasHog369 · January 29, 2011

Tankless are awesome and expensive in beginning... The actual unit is not so much $ but the venting. I wanna say the tankless units heat up alot hotter which you have to have special venting installed to support the heat.

If you have the $ to get one they are nice tho just with the amt of room they save!

Hot water tanks in general are pretty simple. If you go into the stores and look at them tho, the price range can jump huge! Main difference for example between model A, B , C.... A= 10 year warranty, B= 5 year warranty, C= once you leave the store its yours .

But seriously , the reason model A costs $5-600+ is because the heating element is a better quality, and its insulated more.. Insulation is the key here.. Cheap water tanks you will hear knock / bang / and they loose there water temp quick so that thing is constantly running to keep that 40 gallons of water heated....

A good hot water tank will be quiet , and will be well insulated so it will keep the water heated longer. This is why these have a better warranty, since the manufatuer knows they are going to last .

desrtrat · January 30, 2011

we use to use tank less water heaters where i use to work. we could run 72 shower heads with 4 heaters, at water temp of 140* consent.. each heater was rated at 290,000 BTU each running on propane. cost was about $1200 each. so depending on what your plaining to use it for the BTU's can be less, witch will drop the cost of the unit. also most heaters are default to 140* but can be overwritten by reprogramming the PC board to over 195*

good luck

bluArrow · February 2, 2011

because my water heater is constantly running,

My old water heater ran all the time because it was vented into a 40' chimney. The draft from the chimney would pull cool air from the basement through the heater constantly cooling it down. My solution was to put in a PowerVent which vents through the wall. Gas bill dropped by half.

Badbird2000 · February 4, 2011

I do energy surveys and saw a couple of buildings today with tankless electric water heaters. They had 2 showers in each restroom and had no complaints of running out of or waiting for hot water.

becker87 · February 5, 2011

because my water heater is constantly running,

My old water heater ran all the time because it was vented into a 40' chimney. The draft from the chimney would pull cool air from the basement through the heater constantly cooling it down. My solution was to put in a PowerVent which vents through the wall. Gas bill dropped by half.

Thanks for that tip, i will check it out.

As it turns out my water heater was not leaking, it was my humidifier upon closer inspection that sprung a leak and allowed water to run everywhere.

Thanks for the help guys. I may try the tankless on my next house, but maybe by then they will have something better!

jwhjr · February 5, 2011

I just replaced the water heater in my house 3 weeks ago. I did a lot of research between the tankless and ones with storage tanks, and in my case it would have taken about 22 yrs to recover the cost of putting a tankless one in. Not worth it to me so I put a 50 gallon gas in (replaced a 40 gallon gas). I did all of the plumbing myself, and with some additional shut-offs added when it's time to replace again in 15-20 yrs swapping it will be a snap.

becker87 · February 6, 2011

I just replaced the water heater in my house 3 weeks ago. I did a lot of research between the tankless and ones with storage tanks, and in my case it would have taken about 22 yrs to recover the cost of putting a tankless one in. Not worth it to me so I put a 50 gallon gas in (replaced a 40 gallon gas). I did all of the plumbing myself, and with some additional shut-offs added when it's time to replace again in 15-20 yrs swapping it will be a snap.

I havn't looked to in depth at prices but were the prices that much different? I thought it was only a few hundered, which i think would take less then 22 years to recover the cost.

txab · February 6, 2011

You need to add up all your installation costs, including all materials so you can figure payback time. As I said earlier, their are usually a lot of upgrades that must be done in order to have a tankless in your house. Larger electrical service to the area if electric, includes larger breakers. Larger gas line and gas venting, if gas. Plus the you can't just use regular gas vent pipe. Must use what is specified for the tankless unit. If you live in a city, then it will most definitely need to be installed according to code and inspected.

if your existing WH is installed right by your electrical main or your gas main, then your install costs would be low.

Most storage type WH run $500 for gas. Tankless units of the size I'd put in run at least $1000 for a low end model. Tankless units won't last 20 years either. You don't want to cheap out on a tankless

You really must do all your homework before you make a decision and tackle the job.

Last thing.... when the power goes out at your house, you have no hot water. Even if your unit is gas. All are electronically controlled.

GasHog369 · February 6, 2011

Last thing.... when the power goes out at your house, you have no hot water. Even if your unit is gas. All are electronically controlled.

That was one other deciding factor in why we went with a storage tank instead on non....

Power goes out quite a bit here with the snowstorms and such... If theres no heat in house. at least we can take a hot shower!

unit731 · February 7, 2011

txab provided great information.

I have a Myson 325 Direct Vent (out the back). Heater is inside but vents directly out of back of unit. Propane. No electricity needed. Been in use for over 10 years with zero problems. It does require some gettng used to. And you do have to understand flow rates and water pressure.

All of the new ones require double venting outside - or a single vent for both intake and exhaust. All vent out of the top now. Elbows can be used. But all now require electricity.

If this is new construction then the job is much easier. If this is a retrofit - well, then, cost of installation may go up a lot.

All water heater manufacturers are now offering some sort of on demand water heaters. Some bigger brands are Noritz, Takagi, and Bosch.

There are also electric ones such as Stiebel. But do view the wire needed and the circuit breaker needed for these electric ones.

The potential probem arising when one needs to be repaired. As most plumbers don't have a clue how to fix them. Although maybe in some parts of the country where these are installed in great numbers - there may be repair people. Not here though.

My Myson 325 Direct vent was manufactured in England. And that company ceased production of all on demand water heaters. So parts are few and far between.

When my Myson 325 quits. I am going to one of the big box stores and just purchasing a 30 gallon electric water heater. Cheap to buy. Easy to fix or replace.

I did attend the IBS - International Builders Trade Show in Orlando this year and viewed all. Each company, each salesmen will tell you that their product is the best. So do your homework. Check warranties.

If you are retrofitting - best do a complete cost analysis including all costs.

I just don't see the payback on any retrofit. Unless you plan on doing all electrical and plumbing. And if you do this yourself you may have code violations. And if time comes to sell residence and there are code violations you may have to bring all up to code in order to sell home. Do it right the first time.