The Peckish Synapse

[KARNUT]

Every now and then I watch the Mike Rowe Podcast. He had an interesting guest who worked for publishers clearing house right out of college. He wrote a book about his experience. Success, greed, unfortunate events and charity are all covered. The guy was riveting. All from selling an idea.

[Grumpy Bear]

On 2/14/2025 at 3:41 PM, customboss said:

RL HP is really a PAO based oil with lots of additives. That over use of additives instead of base oils is  reactive.  That was my point. 

 

 

 

https://evolvelube.com/history-lessons-in-engine-oil-not-just-for-porsche-enthusiasts/

 

Remember sending me this? (Entire read is better to place in context)

 

[Quote] Oils with newer API SH and SJ requirements and no phosphorus limit were devised, tested, and used in aircooled engines until the end of production of the Porsche 993 with aircooled Mezger engine. Given an average of 0.25% total detergents and this information, it is possible to estimate that every given motor oil must include at least 0.14% zinc and 0.12% phosphorus for aircooled engines (which is the average detergency for API SJ rated oils). The lower the detergency, the less ZDDP is required. Always remember that formulation balance is everything here!

Since Zn, P, and sulfated ash were discovered to be harmful to catalytic converters, oil companies have reduced their use of Zn and P as anti-wear additives, instead opting for alternative zinc-free (ZF) additives and ash-less dispersants in their new low SAPS oils. Boron and molybdenum disulfide, among other friction modifiers, have been added to modern oils to compensate for the EPA’s need to cut the levels of zinc and phosphorus since they do not clog the catalysts in particulate emissions filters or catalytic converters. Notably, most Porsches have run their whole lives with high Zn and P oils, such as those found in API SG-SJ oils as recently as 2004, and we have never heard of catalytic converter problems with these vehicles. [Close quote]

 

This oil is Porsche A40 compliant. Ca is low and even ZDDP levels are low as a result. NOT OVER ADDED. Boron, moly are in line with lower Ca as well.  

 

Red Line HP/Euro does keep up. 

[customboss]

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

 

 

https://evolvelube.com/history-lessons-in-engine-oil-not-just-for-porsche-enthusiasts/

 

Remember sending me this? (Entire read is better to place in context)

 

[Quote] Oils with newer API SH and SJ requirements and no phosphorus limit were devised, tested, and used in aircooled engines until the end of production of the Porsche 993 with aircooled Mezger engine. Given an average of 0.25% total detergents and this information, it is possible to estimate that every given motor oil must include at least 0.14% zinc and 0.12% phosphorus for aircooled engines (which is the average detergency for API SJ rated oils). The lower the detergency, the less ZDDP is required. Always remember that formulation balance is everything here!

Since Zn, P, and sulfated ash were discovered to be harmful to catalytic converters, oil companies have reduced their use of Zn and P as anti-wear additives, instead opting for alternative zinc-free (ZF) additives and ash-less dispersants in their new low SAPS oils. Boron and molybdenum disulfide, among other friction modifiers, have been added to modern oils to compensate for the EPA’s need to cut the levels of zinc and phosphorus since they do not clog the catalysts in particulate emissions filters or catalytic converters. Notably, most Porsches have run their whole lives with high Zn and P oils, such as those found in API SG-SJ oils as recently as 2004, and we have never heard of catalytic converter problems with these vehicles. [Close quote]

 

This oil is Porsche A40 compliant. Ca is low and even ZDDP levels are low as a result. NOT OVER ADDED. Boron, moly are in line with lower Ca as well.  

 

Red Line HP/Euro does keep up. 

Yes.  The RL Euro has always been different since they started adding to the blends. 
I addressed the HP you’ve used in the 4.3 that I analyzed. Why do you continue to post info about the Euro add pack. So you agree ithe HP is now mostly PAO not majority old Hercules made POE? If so great. We agree it’s the truth. Its cleaning capability never was just POE. Early analyses I shared had some kind of glycol reading add. 
 

Different subject. Dizzy the 2.4 oil eater. Have you confirmed the EVAP SYSTEM CONTROL VAVKE SOLENOID IIS FUNCTIONING LATELY WITH A PRO SCAN SYSTEM? CHECK IT DYNAMICALLY AND COLD START WARM START IDLE ETC. JUST FIXED CARBON BUILDING ON A 3.6 in your year range and while it’s a different valve and actuator it’s a similar system that if sticking will FORCE OVERRICH WITH NO MIL CODE SHOWN. 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

38 minutes ago, customboss said:

Yes.  The RL Euro has always been different since they started adding to the blends. 
I addressed the HP you’ve used in the 4.3 that I analyzed. Why do you continue to post info about the Euro add pack. So you agree ithe HP is now mostly PAO not majority old Hercules made POE? If so great. We agree it’s the truth. Its cleaning capability never was just POE. Early analyses I shared had some kind of glycol reading add. 
 

Different subject. Dizzy the 2.4 oil eater. Have you confirmed the EVAP SYSTEM CONTROL VAVKE SOLENOID IIS FUNCTIONING LATELY WITH A PRO SCAN SYSTEM? CHECK IT DYNAMICALLY AND COLD START WARM START IDLE ETC. JUST FIXED CARBON BUILDING ON A 3.6 in your year range and while it’s a different valve and actuator it’s a similar system that if sticking will FORCE OVERRICH WITH NO MIL CODE SHOWN. 

 

 

 

As far as I know and I know back to the mid 1990's the HP line never was majority POE. It varied from grade to SAE grade but rang in between 15% and 40%. Always majority PAO. 

 

Why on the 0W20? Are you looking at unit 391? No glycol.  Ca is under 2500 (kind of the industry benchmark for 'over added' total detergent package) and does use sodium. The zinc/phos. between 800 and 888 ppm. Moly is robust but not off the reservation. This is quite a bit different than even the 2018 chemistry which was absolutely violating the industry standard benchmarks. And yet the ones I ran in Honda's with very good results. 

 

You ever hear of an HP motor plugging oil galleys due to a moly over add? Me either. Now all that said, your history runs back further with this chemistry than mine and I suspect that perhaps your personal benchmark for over added may be lower than the industry. But I would be presuming and guessing with nothing but tendency to go on.  

 

If you were give the newest version of the 0W20 a look you will find that the add package is in current line with LSPI standards and and even more balanced moly/boron ratio. You would still get a good does of POE and a HTHS of 2.9 cP or matching that of a 5W30. The 5W20? I don't know the current particulars. 2020 is the most current VOA I found but no lab noted and a mile off on that labs HTHS value. Nothing reliable. But remember that the HP does have a target audience that includes allot of old iron. They are not trying to be all things to all people on every product in the portfolio. 

 

On to Dizzy. EVAP. Tested, replaced, tested again, smoke tested.... Take note of all the single tailpipe Terrains (2.4 single 3.6 dual) and even new(er) ones suffer over rich. HUGE! They will show LTFT and STFT in line and good balance and yet the O2 signal will run over 70% regardless. She's just old and tired.    She's near the end. Loosing coolant, woofen the valve cover and front seal. 

 

Last note on this. As time passes the bar gets lower. 3000 ppm total detergents used to be the mainstay on every shelf of oil in America. We didn't call them over added then and the only reasons they are not longer the mainstay is the FORCE to reduce them first by regulation and then my GDI design limits. Give it a few more years and 2500 ppm will get obliterated. Patients my good man, patients.  

[VicFirth]

Red Line is still PAO/POE.  A good amount of POE too, especially compared to most other synthetic oils on the market. 

 

"Our SP/SN+ oils such as our 0W-20, 0W-30 and our Euro series 5W-30 and 5W-40.  The products will have slightly different formulation such a reduced anti-wear package(zinc, phosphorus and molly and will have lower detergents and will meet ACEA C2(mid sap) ratings. 

 

Even though these oils have a somewhat reduced formulation compared to other “euro ”products, Our products will still offer high quality PAO and Ester base stocks along with an enhanced protection package that will make them superior to other European oils.

 

When comparing the new lower ash European oils to our regular High-performance oils where SAPS and café are not as critical, we will have an enhanced level of Zinc, Molly ,and Phosphorus and higher detergency but still, offering the same high quality PAO/Ester

 

Base stocks that would also make them superior to the lower ash European oils.

All Red Line products are full synthetic Group IV/Group V Ester base stocks with enhanced levels of Zinc. Phosphorus and Molly for better protection and performance.

 

Hope this helps.

Thanks

Tyler

Technical services"

Edited February 20, 2025 by VicFirth

[customboss]

10 minutes ago, VicFirth said:

A good amount of POE

% ? 

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, customboss said:

% ? 

 

High enough to register 80 to 125 on oxidation. 

 

Compare most recent AMSOIL SS VOA was 48 oxidation on a 5W30. 9/2020.  

 

Red Line HP Euro 5W30 97 oxidation. 3/2023

Red Line HP Euro 5W40 82 oxidation, 12/2024 the lot I'm using right now. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2025 by Grumpy Bear

[VicFirth]

I was able to speak to one of Red Line's tech guys before they moved locations to TN.  I asked him directly that they advertise their oils as being ester based and some are questioning whether they use substantial POE.  He said some grades range from 20-40%.  The 40% is likely the 40 grade which has or had a virgin oxidation of 129.  So I would say Red Line's POE content likely ranges from 15-40% in some grades.  The guy that told me this can be trusted too. 

[VicFirth]

To give you an idea, here is Red Line HP 5w40 (non Euro) with a virgin oxidation value of 129.  This is likely the one that contains the most POE if I had to guess.

 

[customboss]

Esters for GF5.pdf

[Donstar]

There are some things I analyze in nauseating detail.  My wife will automatically recoil when i open my mouth on certain topics.  There are a few members on this thread who are undoubtably forbidden to mention the word "oil" in their homes!  Here, ****** is definitely the root word of analysis 

[KARNUT]

14 minutes ago, Donstar said:

There are some things I analyze in nauseating detail.  My wife will automatically recoil when i open my mouth on certain topics.  There are a few members on this thread who are undoubtably forbidden to mention the word "oil" in their homes!  Here, ****** is definitely the root word of analysis 

The buzz word in my house is anything automotive. The difference is my wife embraced my obsession. When I find myself talking about anything automotive, I apologize. She smiles and says that’s the guy I married. I’m glad it’s not the ladies. Early on she got a subscription to Hot Rod magazine to learn about my addiction. She carved out an allowance so I could pursue my passion. Early on she drove my projects as her daily drive. Eventually developing a passion herself for automobiles. She drives a sport sedan and has a sports car of her own. She doesn’t like loud though. But she put up with tuned exhaust all the way until I turned 60. I didn’t even know. She never complained. When the last noisy left the premises. The avalanche is the first tuck I left stock. That’s the only thing that could have caused an issue. A compromise was made in the beginning leading to a shared appreciation. That’s why I buy used I can make changes more often. 

[customboss]

47 minutes ago, Donstar said:

There are some things I analyze in nauseating detail.  My wife will automatically recoil when i open my mouth on certain topics.  There are a few members on this thread who are undoubtably forbidden to mention the word "oil" in their homes!  Here, ****** is definitely the root word of analysis 

My little Brother ( a baby at 57) like to state;   I put the A-N-A-L in analysis.  He’s a former hair band heavy metal guitarist who owns a very cool music store in Nebraska. But he hates hearing about oil analysis. He however was a Amsoil dealer too! So he listened. 
 

Back to RL. It’s a fine lubricant. They did cut back on what it was 10-15 years ago. The add packs and base oil blends are not as advanced as Amsoil of today. 

Edited February 20, 2025 by customboss

[KARNUT]

5 minutes ago, customboss said:

My little Brother ( a baby at 57) like to state;   I put the A-N-A-L in analysis.  He’s a former hair band heavy metal guitarist who owns a very cool music store in Nebraska. But he hates hearing about oil analysis. He however was a Amsoil dealer too! So he listened. 
 

Back to RL. It’s a fine lubricant. They did cut back on what it was 10-15 years ago. The add packs and base oil blends are not as advanced as Amsoil of today. 

I’m still waiting for this 500K mile vehicles that drink the perfect oil. I have enough confidence in oil today that 200-250K miles is easily achievable. My latest the Ridgeline was given a reasonable maintenance schedule. My confidence is at 250K. Years will probably erode the confidence. It’s 15 years old. In three years of my driving that’s around 45K miles. 205K miles. 

[customboss]

28 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

I’m still waiting for this 500K mile vehicles that drink the perfect oil. I have enough confidence in oil today that 200-250K miles is easily achievable. My latest the Ridgeline was given a reasonable maintenance schedule. My confidence is at 250K. Years will probably erode the confidence. It’s 15 years old. In three years of my driving that’s around 45K miles. 205K miles. 

Very reasonable.