The Peckish Synapse

[customboss]

48 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Spitball Bases & Adds

 

Seems bases run in two general categories, those that are used and those that are not. Too simple? Look, the ones not being currently used can be interesting and even good entertainment and yet useless to the guy trying to make a choice. 

 

Ditto additives. 

 

Know I don't know where everyone went to school so I don't know what their common experience (common sense) may be telling them, but given my background the base oil supports the machine and the additives support the base. So when I make a choice I'm looking base first, then additives and not visa-versa. 

 

Polyol Esters (NPG) are made from reacting a monobasic acid and a polyhedric alcohols.

 

These polyhedric alcohols are synthesized. They can be made from diisobutylene which is made from products of mineral oil (Crude oil). OR they can be made from vegetable oil triglycerides and when made from vegetable oils are called Estolides. It's a bit more complicated but the end structure for both sources is a Neopentyl Polyol structure. 

 

The differences between the two are mainly Ecology. One is renewable and the other is not.

 

I went to all this trouble to explain that of all the base oils being used the Polyols are at the top of the food chain. 

 

 [link]

 

[Quote} In general, polyol esters represent the highest performance level available for high temperature applications at a reasonable price. Although they cost more than many other types of synthetics, the benefits often combine to make this chemistry the most cost effective in severe environment applications. The primary benefits include extended life, higher temperature operation, reduced maintenance and downtime, lower energy consumption, reduced smoke and disposal, and biodegradability. [Close quote]. 

 

Comparing the tables in the previous post https://vintagetriumphregister.org/lubricants-redline/ showing the useful range of the various bases with the actual temperatures inside a motor.

 

The only downside is COST Period. Full Stop. Regardless of the source of the alcohols'. 

 

AN's can't do this. PAO's can't do this and no amount of processing will even get a mineral based oil to this level. It's why it's used in Jet Engines. Now, that said....

 

The percent of POE/Estolide present and WHAT it is blended with matters HUGE. All this before the add package is even considered. 

 

That enough for tonight.  

HOBS base oils aren’t synthesized. They are grown via hybridization and blended into the base we are familiar with. They replace the polyols you mention. For automotive and hydraulic applications. For aircraft turbine powerplants yes you

must use a polyol ester form of base. Mostly hazardous waste when it’s a final formulation and used. 

Edited February 23 by customboss

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, customboss said:

HOBS base oils aren’t synthesized. They are grown via hybridization and blended into the base we are familiar with. They replace the polyols you mention. For automotive and hydraulic applications. For aircraft turbine powerplants yes you

must use a polyol ester form of base. Mostly hazardous waste when it’s a final formulation and used. 

 

Because?  Now where in a motor might one benefit from such heat protection? Top ring under heavy load?  Upper cylinder wall?

 

Wasn't speaking of HOBS. 

 

Speaking of synthetic Polyols from bean oils vs those made from Isobutane (mineral derivatives).

 

And HOBS would fall where on this chart?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23 by Grumpy Bear

[customboss]

9 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Because?  Now where in a motor might one benefit from such heat protection? Top ring under heavy load?  Upper cylinder wall?

 

Wasn't speaking of HOBS. 

 

Speaking of synthetic Polyols from bean oils vs those made from Isobutane (mineral derivatives).

 

And HOBS would fall where on this chart?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good question as far as max temp protection.

5w20 Below data flash point = 428 F.
Im gonna guess in 600 F range. 
 

I tested HTHS above 3.1 by independent lab. 

That 5w20 HD oil ( I shared a VOA of) was developed for USDA fleets by Bill Garmier and I. They were willing to test it in engines requiring 5w30! Imagine that. I know you didn’t mention HOBS but it’s worth bringing into discussion. It’s a non esterified ester replacement. 
HOBS handles methanol, ethanol, and every form of gasoline or diesel fuels very well with out the dilution washout effect at high temp areas as well as lower temp zones. 

[customboss]

9 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Because?  Now where in a motor might one benefit from such heat protection? Top ring under heavy load?  Upper cylinder wall?

No IC automotive engine requires POE to operate cleanly. Only turbine engines and usually only aircraft. 

[customboss]

Another wrench in RL marketing ( among other)  is they confuse the potential user with solvency and high temp performance. Note the 1992 discussion had nothing about solvency. Just deposited protection and high temp performance. Most lubricant makers before DI injection thought very little about high temp solvency. EGR and DI changed that. Everyone can build an oil to remove sludge. Lower temp deposits. Higher temp another story. 

Edited February 23 by customboss

[Grumpy Bear]

1 hour ago, customboss said:

No IC automotive engine requires POE to operate cleanly. Only turbine engines and usually only aircraft. 

 

Requires? I think that has been established even by me. Dad's 390 Ford FE ran most of it's life on Group II/III base oil and made 700K before the car was totaled. Upon inspection is was indeed clean inside. It also spent it's life on OCI's averaging 1K miles and never more than 1.5K. The 92 article does say that these oils are 'goop;' by 5K. 

 

1 hour ago, customboss said:

Another wrench in RL marketing ( among other)  is they confuse the potential user with solvency and high temp performance. Note the 1992 discussion had nothing about solvency. Just deposited protection and high temp performance. Most lubricant makers before DI injection thought very little about high temp solvency. EGR and DI changed that. Everyone can build an oil to remove sludge. Lower temp deposits. Higher temp another story. 

 

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence. You can't prove a negative with what wasn't said. So lets look at what the facts say. Hardly a chink in the armor my friend. 

 

Modern DEXOS1Gen2/3 oils routinely pack ring lands and ring drain backs. Terrain/Paseo GM even has a 'soak' procedure and chemical solvent for that purpose that is the first remedial step of a consumption claim past the test. This happens even at fractions of the OEM recommended OCI. I have never seen a RLHP motor with even a hint of carbonaceous materials in that area even at full length services. I have no reason to believe that these motors I inspect at 200-250K will decline over the next 200-250K miles. 

 

What that 92 post does say is what I posted. Relative temperatures at various loads and the bases ability to abate them and the running proof that both solvency and high temp indeed play a major part. It goes on to say the coefficient of friction of these blends is a fraction of other bases. These PAO/POE blends have a solid and measurable advantage in both heat capacity and heat transfer rates. I've posted those comparisons in this forum from my own research, RLHP v Mobil 1 v QSUD. 

 

1 hour ago, customboss said:

I know you didn’t mention HOBS but it’s worth bringing into discussion. It’s a non esterified ester replacement. 

 

You do remember I am a huge fan of Brit bikes, right?  What was our favorite oil in the 50/60's? Castrol CASTOR BEAN OIL. No not HOBS but I mention to point out that I am quite aware of how slippery and clean these natural esters can run. I expect HOBS excels equally in those areas. You've provided photos of fleet motors doing just that. I also concede that HOBS will have a higher thermal limit hat straight up Mineral oils or even PAO. I recall some NEWLY rebuilt singles turning Bean Oil into a cinder in under 50 miles in the hands of idiots. Ride it like you stole it during break in on bean oil and it WILL nip up 

 

Follows my continuous theme. I don't invite trouble by seeing how close I can get to failure. 

 

I also understand that my choices will not be every ones cuppa tea. That you can get great results with other products if they are used appropriately. Machine operating in accord with the products ability and replenished often enough. 

 

1 hour ago, customboss said:

I tested HTHS above 3.1 by independent lab.

 

I'll say that this is a very nice HTHS number for a *W20 oil and puts in on the radar for those who are more comfortable staying with a 'OEM Recommended" oil grade. Even if not licensed. Good film is a strong point of all actually used esters. 

 

Ever actually test their 5W30? Publish literature just says >2.9, the minimum spec. 

Edited February 23 by Grumpy Bear

[customboss]

5 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Requires? I think that has been established even by me. Dad's 390 Ford FE ran most of it's life on Group II/III base oil and made 700K before the car was totaled. Upon inspection is was indeed clean inside. It also spent it's life on OCI's averaging 1K miles and never more than 1.5K. The 92 article does say that these oils are 'goop;' by 5K. 

 

 

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence. You can't prove a negative with what wasn't said. So lets look at what the facts say. Hardly a chink in the armor my friend. 

 

Modern DEXOS1Gen2/3 oils routinely pack ring lands and ring drain backs. Terrain/Paseo GM even has a 'soak' procedure and chemical solvent for that purpose that is the first remedial step of a consumption claim past the test. This happens even at fractions of the OEM recommended OCI. I have never seen a RLHP motor with even a hint of carbonaceous materials in that area even at full length services. I have no reason to believe that these motors I inspect at 200-250K will decline over the next 200-250K miles. 

 

What that 92 post does say is what I posted. Relative temperatures at various loads and the bases ability to abate them and the running proof that both solvency and high temp indeed play a major part. It goes on to say the coefficient of friction of these blends is a fraction of other bases. These PAO/POE blends have a solid and measurable advantage in both heat capacity and heat transfer rates. I've posted those comparisons in this forum from my own research, RLHP v Mobil 1 v QSUD. 

 

 

You do remember I am a huge fan of Brit bikes, right?  What was our favorite oil in the 50/60's? Castrol CASTOR BEAN OIL. No not HOBS but I mention to point out that I am quite aware of how slippery and clean these natural esters can run. I expect HOBS excels equally in those areas. You've provided photos of fleet motors doing just that. I also concede that HOBS will have a much higher thermal limit. I recall some NEWLY rebuilt singles turning Bean Oil into a cinder in under 50 miles in the hands of idiots. Ride it like you stole it during break in on bean oil and it WILL nip up 

 

Follows my continuous theme. I don't invite trouble by seeing how close I can get to failure. 

 

I also understand that my choices will not be every ones cuppa tea. That you can get great results with other products if they are used appropriately. Machine operating in accord with the products ability and replenished often enough. 

 

 

I'll say that this is a very nice HTHS number for a *W20 oil and puts in on the radar for those who are more comfortable staying with a 'OEM Recommended" oil grade. Even if not licensed. Good film is a strong point of all actually used esters. 

 

Ever actually test their 5W30? Publish literature just says >2.9, the minimum spec. 

Here’s independent testing of the non HD products before the updated add packs. 2011 

You can see the delta between the HD 5w20 we custom made for us gov. 

[customboss]

5 minutes ago, customboss said:

Here’s independent testing of the non HD products before the updated add packs. 2011 

You can see the delta between the HD 5w20 we custom made for us gov. 

Here’s the last I can find on phone search. 

[customboss]

@Grumpy Bear remember RLI is primarily an industrial supplier and mom and pop like Redline started as. 
They do a lot of DOD and gov contracts. 

[customboss]

I can post Redline data but it’s dated. 

[customboss]

Why didn’t you run Redline in the 2.4 Terrain I think you call Dizzy? 

[Grumpy Bear]

10 hours ago, customboss said:

Why didn’t you run Redline in the 2.4 Terrain I think you call Dizzy? 

 

Same reason I wound up in Illinois. STUPIDITY. 

She said, "Get us out of Texas and I'll love you forever". 

 

Every once in a blue moon I get mentally lazy. Bored perhaps. I see the Kool-Aid sitting there and take a sip. I'd started reading a blog by a guy you may know, Rat540 who claimed QSUD was the hottest thing on the planet. There was also the new to me, GM requirement for a DEXOS1Gen2 licensed oil to keep the warranty in tact, which Red Line as you know is not. It was cheap. I gave in and the rest as they say is history. And now you know the reason I now protect me equipment and not the warranty. 

 

10 hours ago, customboss said:

I can post Redline data but it’s dated. 

 

It's okay. I piecing together newer data on current formulations. But thanks anyway. 

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

Old School

 

When GM was developing the SBC in the 1950's they did huge studies on fatigue limits of things like rods, pushrods and valve springs. And thinking they had that handled by designing the rods to take 120% load at peak power RPM for 1 million cycles, (what was considered in engineering as infinite life) they had it made. Shortly thereafter rod failures got silly and the beefed up "Pink Rod" was released. The lesson? Never underestimate the stupidity of the buying public to exceed all rational expectations.  [Source material: Petersons Publications, Hot to Hot Rod the Small Block Chevy]. Look it up. 

 

Ford used a different approach when developing the monolog inline Six of 200 CID capacity. Seven main bearing steel crank and a valve gear that was bullet proof to 5500 RPM then put a cam in it that nosed over like a rock in a well at 4300 RPM. You'd have to run it out of oil to break it. You could fill the tank, start it, drop a brick on the go fast pedal and wait for the tank to empty cause kiddo's, it wont break. Ask me how I know . Lesson? Always bring more than you need to the dance. 

 

I'm old school. If I need a one ton jack I buy a duce and never give it a second thought. 

 

Do I need a Polyol Ester for a road motor? Did I need King Suspension? Did I need to revamp the cooling system? Did I need to maintain tires to run 125K. Did I get rewarded for those efforts? In Spades! Over engineer. Under Stress.   

 

But hey, you do you, right?

 

 

Edited February 24 by Grumpy Bear

[customboss]

9 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Old School

 

When GM was developing the SBC in the 1950's they did huge studies on fatigue limits of things like rods, pushrods and valve springs. And thinking they had that handled by designing the rods to take 120% load at peak power RPM for 1 million cycles, (what was considered in engineering as infinite life) they had it made. Shortly thereafter rod failures got silly and the beefed up "Pink Rod" was released. The lesson? Never underestimate the stupidity of the buying public to exceed all rational expectations.  [Source material: Petersons Publications, Hot to Hot Rod the Small Block Chevy]. Look it up. 

 

Ford used a different approach when developing the monolog inline Six of 200 CID capacity. Seven main bearing steel crank and a valve gear that was bullet proof to 5500 RPM the put a cam in it that nosed over like a rock in a well at 4300 RPM. You'd have to run it out of oil to break it. You could fill the tank, start it, drop a brick on the go fast pedal and wait for the tank to empty cause kiddo's, it wont break. Ask me how I know . Lesson? Always bring more than you need to the dance. 

 

I'm old school. If I need a one ton jack I buy a duce and never give it a second thought. 

 

Do I need a Polyol Ester for a road motor? Did I need King Suspension? Did I need to revamp the cooling system? Did I need to maintain tires to run 125K. Did I get rewarded for those efforts? In Spades! Over engineer. Under Stress.   

 

But hey, you do you, right?

As the youngsters say; I FEEL YA BRO. 

[customboss]