18 5.3 Oil Change interval

[Grumpy Bear]

3 hours ago, Cowpie said:

Well, PAO has lower lubricity than a Group III.  

 

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/31106/polyalphaolefin-pao-lubricants

 

And modern Group III base oils can match or even exceed Group IV PAO base oils in several categories.  

 

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/533/base-oil-trends

 

I like a Group III (75%) and Group IV PAO (25%) blend.  The Group III provides most of what I need while PAO offers a better thermal stability.

 

Yep got to dogmatic in an earlier post but here's why it doesn't matter. Not a single base oil stands alone in any formulation. The synergies created by the blender produce a result so much better than any single base that there is no comparison that can be made.  Such discussions become academic, unfruitful and monotonous. 

 

Source: (Shell Oil) Aniline points for a 2 cSt base oils. As viscosity increases so does the aniline point. The lower the aniline point the higher the lubricity the lower the film strength.  

 

 

Group 1 = 75 C (Naphthenic)

Group 2 = 90 C (Paraffinic) 

Group 3 = 102 C (Paraffinic)

Group 3 = 114 C (GTL 100% Iso-Paraffin)

Group 4 = 105 C (PAO)

Group 5 = 20 C (Polyol Ester at 5 cSt)

Group 5 = 30 C (oil soluble PAG)

 

As viscosity increases so does the aniline point. About 30 points C by 10 cSt across the board. 

 

(Source Exxon/Mobil)

 

A 20% POE 80% PAO produces a sliding friction coefficient of 0.1 in the 2 to 4 cSt range. In comparison the same 2 -4 PAO alone has a coefficient 2 to 2.3 time higher. Lockstep results as you go up in vis. No other blend is lower without stout friction modifier additives. An oil filled ball bearing runs .01 to .10. 

 

Lubricity is a function of polarity and mixed polar components such as the POE/PAO above provide the lowest ASTM D6079 HFFR results. (boundary lubrication like piston/cylinder) When mixing a non-polar with another non-polar, such as Group III and PAO  'friction modifiers' additives are required. In the hydrodynamic regime (rod a mains) friction is a function solely of viscosity. Polarity is not a consideration. 

 

This is why you have to be careful when words like can and may are in play. Aniline points are as direct a measurement for both polarity and solubility as there is. It IS the industry standard.

 

 

3 hours ago, Cowpie said:

And modern Group III base oils can match or even exceed Group IV PAO base oils in several categories.  

Word craft. The 'can' (actually do) exceed a PAO in...VI by 10 to 20 points, NOACK, by 50%, Sulfur by 2 ppm content and then only IF they are GTL based at the same viscosity. Actually a Group II Paraffin will exceed a POA in VI by...one point.

 

But I digress. They, as we have seen above, do not exceed PAO in anything that matters to a degree of any distinction other than NOACK. They all stink in solvency, lubricity. But excel in oxidation resistance and film strength. The statement is true, yes and no it doesn't matter.

 

Synergy...think synergy.  A 2 cSt Polyol has a VI around 150. 30 points higher than GTL. Really enhances lower base groups. Give this a thought. This above quote is without reference or specification. Just a broad general statement. A toss of wet waste paper against a wall so something might stick. 

 

I just gave you both reference and specification and exact data by a couple of actual players. Just say' n. 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

On 11/13/2019 at 1:20 AM, dclayton said:

Bought a used 2018 with the 5.3l with 24000 miles, had first oil change done at the dealer today and the sticker they put on the window recommends the next one in 3500k miles, seems a little soon to me...am I wrong in thinking that

Let's get back to the OP's question: How often. Honestly it depends on how long you believe you think it should last. Not being coy here, being honest. The thread is a continuation of a long list of such threads. They all end pretty much the same. Let's change that. 

 

There is no single universal answer to your question. OEM guidelines and 'around the cracker barrel' recommendations are based on what? Approximations and even those are approximations of approximations. Who is the 'average driver' and what is normal and severe service? What is the average condition and what is an average oil? The 'average guy' using the 'average conventional' oil under 'average' conditions should change his oil 'around' every 3 to 4 thousand miles.  Okay all I know is which wall the dart board is hanging on. 

 

The life of an oil depends on allot more than what's in the bottle. Almost anything in a bottle will do a stellar job if it's taken care of because the life of what's in the bottle will depend on operating conditions. Those will depend on the weather, load and operator. And while that sounds complicated enough that laundry list of checks misses the most common oil related failure there is. What is that? Cleanliness. Dirty oil kills more mechanical devices than worn out oil, contaminated oil or deleted additive packages. A thing called three body wear. 

 

UOA's almost never consider an oils cleanliness. Even what they do report is given such broad interpretation as not have a meaning. 

 

Clean Oil Guide © 2019 C.C.JENSEN A/S Ver. 011 | 10.2019 English version Published by: C.C.JENSEN A/S Svendborg, Denmark: 

 

Gives some worthwhile guidelines that are pretty much universally ignored by more labs and operators than can be counted. 

 

Yes physicals are important as are wear metals. However broadly accepted advice of changing oil on TBN at a level of slightly better than 1.0 is bad dope. TBN is meaningless without the virgin and current TAN values. A rise of TAN of just 0.05 units above the virgin oil results should trigger an oil change. A loss of 2/3 of the virgin TBN triggers an oil change. A water content that is 60% of the lubricants saturation limit triggers an oil change. A viscosity shift of 10% triggers an oil change. Contamination by fuel, antifreeze are triggers. But what about cleanliness? 

 

https://www.cjc.dk/fileadmin/root/File_Admin_Filter/doc_Brochures/Clean_Oil_Guide.pdf

 

Pages 8,9 and 22-25 read carefully and paying attention to the table page 46 will explain why there can not be a once size fits all number given to your question. Then review the pages on filtration. 

 

So what can be said? 

 

Run a virgin oil sample and request a TAN a TBN and a particle count. You would be surprised how dirty new oil is. Ask for the fluids exact moister saturation ppm level.

 

Then have a long look at the life multiplier tables and set goals for the life of the device. Start sampling  and eventually you will find your custom answer that reflects your choice of products, you habits, your environment and so on.

 

Ever ask yourself why semi motors get such incredible engine life? Certainly there exceptional build specifications have a great deal to do with it but they also carry gallons of oil, not quarts and they have multiple stages of filtration that leaves the oil cleaner that it went in.

 

Now if all that seems just to much to deal with then you do what thousands of motorist do. Punt. Buy the best oil and filter you can afford and change is more often than rational.  OR do what millions do. Ignore it and trade often. 

 

 

 

 

[TXGREEK]

Let's get back to the OP's question: How often. Honestly it depends on how long you believe you think it should last. Not being coy here, being honest. The thread is a continuation of a long list of such threads. They all end pretty much the same. Let's change that. 
 
There is no single universal answer to your question. OEM guidelines and 'around the cracker barrel' recommendations are based on what? Approximations and even those are approximations of approximations. Who is the 'average driver' and what is normal and severe service? What is the average condition and what is an average oil? The 'average guy' using the 'average conventional' oil under 'average' conditions should change his oil 'around' every 3 to 4 thousand miles.  Okay all I know is which wall the dart board is hanging on. 
 
The life of an oil depends on allot more than what's in the bottle. Almost anything in a bottle will do a stellar job if it's taken care of because the life of what's in the bottle will depend on operating conditions. Those will depend on the weather, load and operator. And while that sounds complicated enough that laundry list of checks misses the most common oil related failure there is. What is that? Cleanliness. Dirty oil kills more mechanical devices than worn out oil, contaminated oil or deleted additive packages. A thing called three body wear. 
 
UOA's almost never consider an oils cleanliness. Even what they do report is given such broad interpretation as not have a meaning. 
 
Clean Oil Guide [emoji2398] 2019 C.C.JENSEN A/S Ver. 011 | 10.2019 English version Published by: C.C.JENSEN A/S Svendborg, Denmark: 
 
Gives some worthwhile guidelines that are pretty much universally ignored by more labs and operators than can be counted. 
 
Yes physicals are important as are wear metals. However broadly accepted advice of changing oil on TBN at a level of slightly better than 1.0 is bad dope. TBN is meaningless without the virgin and current TAN values. A rise of TAN of just 0.05 units above the virgin oil results should trigger an oil change. A loss of 2/3 of the virgin TBN triggers an oil change. A water content that is 60% of the lubricants saturation limit triggers an oil change. A viscosity shift of 10% triggers an oil change. Contamination by fuel, antifreeze are triggers. But what about cleanliness? 
 
https://www.cjc.dk/fileadmin/root/File_Admin_Filter/doc_Brochures/Clean_Oil_Guide.pdf
 
Pages 8,9 and 22-25 read carefully and paying attention to the table page 46 will explain why there can not be a once size fits all number given to your question. Then review the pages on filtration. 
 
So what can be said? 
 
Run a virgin oil sample and request a TAN a TBN and a particle count. You would be surprised how dirty new oil is. Ask for the fluids exact moister saturation ppm level.
 
Then have a long look at the life multiplier tables and set goals for the life of the device. Start sampling  and eventually you will find your custom answer that reflects your choice of products, you habits, your environment and so on.
 
Ever ask yourself why semi motors get such incredible engine life? Certainly there exceptional build specifications have a great deal to do with it but they also carry gallons of oil, not quarts and they have multiple stages of filtration that leaves the oil cleaner that it went in.
 
Now if all that seems just to much to deal with then you do what thousands of motorist do. Punt. Buy the best oil and filter you can afford and change is more often than rational.  OR do what millions do. Ignore it and trade often. 
 
 
 
 

That’s why I NEVER buy used [emoji6]


Sent from Above

[diyer2]

Again!

I have bought used only.

Never been a bad one.

They are not high mileage though.

 

Money saved invested for a return instead of eating high depreciation the first few years.

Makes more sense to me.

[KARNUT]

Again!
I have bought used only.
Never been a bad one.
They are not high mileage though.
 
Money saved invested for a return instead of eating high depreciation the first few years.
Makes more sense to me.
[emoji4]

My brother in law always buys low mileage used. All GMs pickup and suburbans. He runs them up to 300K miles. Not because he can’t afford new. I only bought two cars the same year new. A 94 impala ss kept it 7 years. I traded it to a dealer for a new Camaro for my son to drive to college. I paid TTL only. An 01 Acura intagra type r. was the other. There going for 3 times sticker. Otherwise leftover, CPO, or used. Use depends on brand.


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[TXGREEK]

Again!

I have bought used only.

Never been a bad one.

They are not high mileage though.

 

Money saved invested for a return instead of eating high depreciation the first few years.

Makes more sense to me.

[emoji4]

 

Cars are not investments, they’re depreciating commodities. I bought used once in my life and refuse to ever buy used again, breakdowns were result of previous cheap AHole not maintaining it which later made it look like I was to blame for its lack of maintenance. I run everything as my business expenses. There’s a HUGE amount of people on these forums and off that’ll run OCI’s way pass their driving habits characteristics, later causing issues. I buy new, keep excellent records of my AMSOIL Sig Series service, and get thousands ($) more than the average individual when it comes to resale/trade in.

 

 

Sent from Above

 

[txab]

Topic is oil change interval, not used vs new vehicle purchases.

 

Start a new thread if you wish to discuss. Otherwise this thread has run it's course

[KARNUT]

Topic is oil change interval, not used vs new vehicle purchases.
 
Start a new thread if you wish to discuss. Otherwise this thread has run it's course

I think it’s entertaining when threads wobble a bit. New things get brought up it gets interesting. Someone always straighten things out eventually. How many time’s can we talk about oil changes? I’m always gamed about answering Someone’s wobble. Maybe I’ve been around here too long, things are getting boring. I’ll ponder that.


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[txab]

Quote

How many time’s can we talk about oil changes?

Exactly!

 

More people might chime in to a thread that was more dedicated to old vs new, instead of being buried inside another thread, especially this topic. Many people aren't viewing all these oil related threads like you'd think. They know the same 4 or 5 people are going to post the same thing almost every time

 

Boring? Change it up. Instead of extending these oil threads, start threads on different topic. Something that others might be more interested in. The main issue I hear is people think this is turning into BITOG site.

 

Not all topics have to be vehicle related..... we have an off topic that almost anything can be brought up

 

 

[KARNUT]

I just remembered an oil change story. I only remember my grandmother owning two cars. A 55 Chevy and a 65 Chevy biscane. It was a 6 cylinder power glide. She owned a bus co. in N.J. for awhile and drove quite a bit. Later on when I got older and became more into cars I asked how often she changed her oil. Once a year was her reply along with a wash. I even drove it some on some trips to horse shows. My sibs showed Appaloosas. She wouldn’t get my car too noisy. That car was past 100K miles when I last noticed in the mid seventies. She was still driving when most of my family moved to Texas in 79 until the early 80s. I didn’t ask want kind of oil. Knowing her it was the cheapest.


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[TXGREEK]

I just remembered an oil change story. I only remember my grandmother owning two cars. A 55 Chevy and a 65 Chevy biscane. It was a 6 cylinder power glide. She owned a bus co. in N.J. for awhile and drove quite a bit. Later on when I got older and became more into cars I asked how often she changed her oil. Once a year was her reply along with a wash. I even drove it some on some trips to horse shows. My sibs showed Appaloosas. She wouldn’t get my car too noisy. That car was past 100K miles when I last noticed in the mid seventies. She was still driving when most of my family moved to Texas in 79 until the early 80s. I didn’t ask want kind of oil. Knowing her it was the cheapest.  

 

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I’d agree with you on the old days, simple motors required simple maintenance. Today’s engines are far more advanced, squeezing out more HP all while appeasing the EPA as well as enormous tolerance differences requiring thinner and thinner oil in order to deal with these new robotic like motors. I’ve even thought about getting back into an older big block but no interest in restoring or dealing with stinky carburetors lol.

 

I’ve been looking into Tesla’s new CyberTruck, waiting for more info on them, seriously considering keeping my current truck for trips and having the Tesla for city driving. Ok, sorry for going off topic lol

 

 

Sent from Above

 

 

[KARNUT]

  I’d agree with you on the old days, simple motors required simple maintenance. Today’s engines are far more advanced, squeezing out more HP all while appeasing the EPA as well as enormous tolerance differences requiring thinner and thinner oil in order to deal with these new robotic like motors. I’ve even thought about getting back into an older big block but no interest in restoring or dealing with stinky carburetors lol.
 
I’ve been looking into Tesla’s new CyberTruck, waiting for more info on them, seriously considering keeping my current truck for trips and having the Tesla for city driving. Ok, sorry for going off topic lol
 
 
Sent from Above
 
 

We had good luck with converting carburetor cars with Holley fuel injection kits. We would change the oil after. That’s kinda staying on the subject.[emoji106]


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