Another oil thread

[OnTheReel]

Should be this one, no? Like many companies it seems buying by the single quart is a great way to overpay.

I don’t have a home for this stuff anyway but a VOA would be interesting. 

[Grumpy Bear]

Yep, that's the one. 

[Black02Silverado]

Grumpy, what are your thoughts on (Hight Performance Lubricants) HPL fluids.  I'm seeing more and more of it getting used online. One instance is they are blending an oil specifically tailored to the Ecodiesel in the Ram's and Jeeps to see if they can get lower aluminum counts. They are working with a Jeep mechanic that has an Ecodiesel. He is very knowledgeable when it comes to the Ecodiesel and had a ton of UOA's. AMSOIL's European MS 5w-40 oil is currently the best option from what he see's. It's not the recommended oil by AMSOIL, the FS 5w-40 is.  The MS is showing better numbers than the FS.

[Grumpy Bear]

21 minutes ago, Black02Silverado said:

Grumpy, what are your thoughts on (Hight Performance Lubricants) HPL fluids.  I'm seeing more and more of it getting used online. One instance is they are blending an oil specifically tailored to the Ecodiesel in the Ram's and Jeeps to see if they can get lower aluminum counts. They are working with a Jeep mechanic that has an Ecodiesel. He is very knowledgeable when it comes to the Ecodiesel and had a ton of UOA's. AMSOIL's European MS 5w-40 oil is currently the best option from what he see's. It's not the recommended oil by AMSOIL, the FS 5w-40 is.  The MS is showing better numbers than the FS.

 

I haven't followed this particular thread but as a Science guy who loves machines, I'd say 'follow the data'.

 

That said verify. Always give consideration to the methods used, the lab used the integrity of the person or persons presenting the data. Do what you reasonably can to allow yourself to trust the data, then trust it until it gives you reason not to.

 

You didn't ask but I've noted over the years this tendency to 'test' one OCI at a time. That is take a single cross contaminated result and 'assume' a trend instead of building the trend. Very popular with YouTube guys as it keeps things rolling and it take allot of time to generate trends. I know you've watched allot of Lake's videos and I'm sure you've noticed that when his is testing he "Waste" at least one full, sometime two oil charges between sequences. Details matter more when the results you are looking at are so close as to be hard to parse. Some look/test to confirm a belief. They are more successful if they look for the truth even when it isn't what they wished for.

 

Especially if you are going to hang your hat and your reputation on a product....look hard, very hard, before the leap.  

 

That's my though anyway. Hope there is something there to found useful. Thanks for asking. 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

https://www.triaxlubricants.com/pages/about-us

 

Not produced off shore. API licensed products along side some others that are not due to not having 'read across'. ISO certified. 

 

Same story as Red Line HP/Professional grades and AMSOIL SS/OEM and Torco and Evolve...and BioSyn....and...

 

Where did all the hate come from? I'll bet someone peed in someone's Cheerios. 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2025 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

API Donuts and DEXOS base oil requirements

 

Study this and contemplate what this means about getting an API certification. Then perhaps you will understand why oils like AMSOIL SS, Red Line HP, Torco SR-5 and many HPL oils don't have donuts. 

 

https://www.api.org/certification-programs/engine-oil-diesel-exhaust-fluid/~/media/files/certification/engine-oil-diesel/publications/appendix-e-rev-09-01-11.ashx

 

Go to Practical Lubrication and Filtration and note the POSSIBLE viscosities producible for each base Oil Group. Then note at the bottom of the chart how interchange is tied not only to Group but to the original blends base oil viscosity and finally to a qualifying percentage. 

 

Give cost of certifications for coloring outside the line it should be easy to see how the industry 'protects' self above actual wear protections. 

 

Also note, as an aside, that the more refined the base the lower and narrower that base oil become meaning? You are not getting more than an SAE 20 from a straight up Group III. That oil is not just specified to meet EPA CAFE requirements but to meet the lowest cost bar possible while boxing out all challengers. 

 

Only the largest or most well equipped blenders will be able to meet the financial burdens. Mobil and Valvoline examples. DEXOS follows the same rules with slightly tighter standard on a few tests which make it look like something more than it is. 

 

It has darn little to do with how great the OEM Engineering staff is and a whole lot to do with $$$$ and exclusivity. 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2025 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

In the Above

 

Note that ALL Group V fluids are boxed out? Esters, Alkylated Naphthalene. O-PAG's. So unless the original qualified oil contained them to begin with, then replicating is as good as it could possibly get. 

 

You could not add a Group III or IV to a Group II oil whose original 30 W rating was brought about by natural viscosity. That equal to or greater than symbol precludes it use. m-POA excepted but wasn't really a mainstream thing in 2011 when the rules were drafted. Ops! Still it would be boxed out on economics. Oh, this is a well thought out plan. 

 

Oils like those mentioned in the first paragraph above live on reputation to survive. It also says that IF the percentages were low enough to qualify for a read across it would have a donut. So..... ya kind'a have a basement. 

 

Put on the coffee and open the link above and stare until the lightbulb turns on. Read each qualifying test. The only thing that prevents a POE from being API approved is the rule of interchange cause it blows the original bases out of the water in every test that matters. Much the same could be said of the AN's. 

[Grumpy Bear]

You like resources? 

 

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/forums/white-papers-and-technical-discussions.53/

 

 

[customboss]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

You like resources? 

 

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/forums/white-papers-and-technical-discussions.53/

 

 

I was one of the original founders of Bob is the oil guy. Why don’t you go over there and put your posts about oils?
You had no interest in taking over what I can’t do anymore because of my disabilities but you’d like to just keep posting Bob is the oil guy stuff up here why?

not getting personal here I’m just asking a question. 

[Grumpy Bear]

I enjoyed posts #1 and found #9 very informative. 

 

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/boron-additives.57848/

 

You know when a lawyer in a big case demands 'discovery' to find a single document and the opposition who has the damning document and must comply dumps six semi truck trailers of document boxes on them? This is the white papers section. The right documents are there if you can look past the truckloads of distractions and the personality wars. 

 

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

Moved to proper thread.

 

 

Edited July 16, 2025 by Grumpy Bear

[KARNUT]

I watched Lake Speed JR for awhile. I got time I’ll watch anything. He comical same reason I watch Vicegrip garage. I was watching a video where he was standing in front of his daughter’s minivan. Forget what it was about. I do remember him saying it had 10K miles since its last oil change. Wait, what? I don’t watch him anymore. 

[Grumpy Bear]

From an AMSOIL site

The discussion is informative

 

https://selectsynthetics.com/part-3-...ld-i-use-.html

 

 

How the writer got to +30 C / 86 F for a *W20 I haven't an idea.

 

But giving him the benefit of my doubts I ask myself how many days a year in my area the air temperature exceeds 86 F and the answer to that is statistically about 10 days a year between June 1 and August 31. Beyond the reach of 0W20 10 days a year. Beyond the reach of 5W30 a few days a year. That is doable with mindful operation.  Our local record is 104 F / 40C. That lands me in SAE 40 territory. 

 

Cold side? Our coldest month historically is Jan at -9.9 C / 14 F. But our record is -33 C / -27 F. Like antifreeze you plan for the worst not the average. Here, that's a 5W* 

 

Not a hard process to find the best temperature based protection. 5W40. 

 

Why 0W20 then? It's a odds play and a C.A.F.E. play. And a designed obsolescence play.  Something the public has been groomed for decades to believe. Since I was a child. A pill I never swallowed. 

 

 

 

[customboss]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

From an AMSOIL site

The discussion is informative

 

https://selectsynthetics.com/part-3-...ld-i-use-.html

 

 

How the writer got to +30 C / 86 F for a *W20 I haven't an idea.

 

But giving him the benefit of my doubts I ask myself how many days a year in my area the air temperature exceeds 86 F and the answer to that is statistically about 10 days a year between June 1 and August 31. Beyond the reach of 0W20 10 days a year. Beyond the reach of 5W30 a few days a year. That is doable with mindful operation.  Our local record is 104 F / 40C. That lands me in SAE 40 territory. 

 

Cold side? Our coldest month historically is Jan at -9.9 C / 14 F. But our record is -33 C / -27 F. Like antifreeze you plan for the worst not the average. Here, that's a 5W* 

 

Not a hard process to find the best temperature based protection. 5W40. 

 

Why 0W20 then? It's a odds play and a C.A.F.E. play. And a designed obsolescence play.  Something the public has been groomed for decades to believe. Since I was a child. A pill I never swallowed. 

 

 

 

Check out what the engineers at AMC Jeep thought in 1977-78  timeframe. 
Grumpy keeps talking about the J300 SAE 20 Viscosity range of being something special  .

It’s not!  The current SAEJ 300 SAE 20 range COVERS SAE 20, SAE 16, SAE 0W8.

 

 

NOW LET’S TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT AMC JEEP ENGINEERS thought  ABOUT EVERY ONE OF THEIR V8 THE 304 THE 401 THE 360 AND THEY’RE 258 IN-LINE SIX.

 

 

TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT THE OIL RECOMMENDED FOR A STRAIGHT VISCOSITY SO YOU GET AN IDEA OF WHAT THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT AT OPERATING TEMPERATURE ABOVE 0°F. THEN TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT IF YOU OPERATED ABOVE 40 F ALL THE TIME  THE STRAIGHT Weight RECOMMENDATIONS GIVE YOU A GREAT IDEA OF WHAT THE AMC ENGINEERS WERE THINKING THAT WOULD OPERATE THE BEST IN THESE MID LATE 70S ENGINES in FULL size trucks and Jeeps.
 

grumpy is absolutely correct that dynamic viscosity at the design temperatures for that engine or what you want to run as an engine oil. But not because of just where they were concerned about the power cylinder, ring seal being near perfect or as best as they could keep it that at the 5000 mile normal drainable that was recommended. If the engine was operated in any stress mode, the oil change interval was recommended to be somewhere around 3000 miles or less. Remember this is on very cheap solvent refined group one lubricant with very little an additive package. The added package that was used in the 70s was so poor that anything that was polymeric was a cheap polyester and it formed secondary deposits. That’s why  the oils WEREW LOOKED DOWN UPON  during that time by OEM’s because the oil manufacturers couldn’t do it right.  THE VISCOSITIES OF THE OILS WERE LESS CRITICAL THAN THE QUALITY OF THE MOLECULES BEING USED TO MAKE THE OILS.  IT’S STILL TRUE TODAY IF YOU’RE MASKING AN ISSUE IN YOUR ENGINE BY ADDING HEAVIER, VISCOSITY OIL MORE THICK IT’S NOT NECESSARILY THE IDEAL.

IF YOU RUN A 5W 40 OIL IN AN ENGINE THAT CAN RUN OPTIMALLY ON AN SAE 0W 20 OR AN SAE 5W 20 OR A STRAIGHT 20 IF YOU CAN FIND ONE 20 W 20 THEN YOU’RE JUST WASTING ENERGY ADDING A HIGHER OIL AND TO KNOW THAT THE ONLY WAY YOU’RE GONNA KNOW THAT REALLY IS TO ANALYZE THE OIL LIKE GRUMPY DOES. 

 

CAFE was not even a factor until late 80’s for trucks. 

Edited July 26, 2025 by customboss

[Grumpy Bear]

How much instrumentation does your vehicle have?

 

My bet is about enough to keep you ignorant and that kids is by design. One of the best examples of "Out of sight, out of mind". 

 

How many people believe that because you motor is water cooled the oil temperature is pretty much constant? Raise your hand. Yep, what I thought. Nearly all. 

 

C'mon on now, intuitively you know that isn't true but even if you do my next winning bet is you cannot define that relationship or are  even are aware one exists. 

 

I've put this chart up before but I'll post it again here to remind you that bearing temperature and pan temperature are different in the same water cooled motor. There is a very wide and varied set of temperatures within a working engine. These temperatures that live within this tempered water system vary and vary allot and not just by where in the motor but under what operating conditions they are subject to. More load, more heat. More rpm, more heat. Hot day where the water thermostat is no longer maintaining 3 degrees off cracking temperature but is now 20 degrees over that mark adds heat to the oil. The base oil selection has a pretty big impact on pan temperatures for the same loads as I have posted before from Peppers data. 

 

 

It is why this chart exists: 

 

 

 

Your oil doesn't live in a lab or reside in a report or a study. 

 

Again from this link: https://selectsynthetics.com/part-3--what-oil-grade-should-i-use-.html

 

 

For example, the Owner's Manual for my 2014 Sorento EX (3.3L non-turbo V-6) states: "For better fuel economy, it is recommended to use the engine oil of a viscosity grade SAE 5W-30 [although 5W-20 would actually be better for fuel economy] API SM/ILSAC GF-4 [API SN PLUS/ILSAC GF-5 are now the latest specs]. However, if the engine oil is not available in your country, select the proper engine oil using the engine oil viscosity chart." The 'viscosity chart' lists two other acceptable multi-grades (SAE 5W-20 and SAE 5W-40).

 

In fact you will find this statement in the Mitsubishi Euro/British/Aussie owners manuals and those of many other makes and marks. You can't even find 0W20 in many markets. Saudi Arabia, North Africa any. to example a few. 

 

I've seen a few times 255 F in the pan of Pepper early on. Light oil, lower gear on the highway and not even the much load. Just spinning it up for longer than a hot second. Investigating and exploring her cooling limits. Oil limits and what I do as far as oil choice and modifications is from work like that. 

 

Instrument it, study it and no eating guppy food. That's shouldn't confuse anyone. Nor should it confuse anyone that I don't have to learn the same lessons with each new vehicle. I get a better first choice every time. And I share that so you don't have to either. But it's yours....

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2025 by Grumpy Bear