It’s been real

Locom0tive · June 23, 2020

Where a vehicle is made counts much more in the grand scheme of its lifetime more so than who owns the production line. For example, Toyota and Honda both have assembly lines here that are strictly regulated (as much as they can be) towards imitating the production plants in their homeland. Their existence here creates numerous employment opportunities as well as giving back to their local states/counties and the nation in the form of tax revenue from production to sales. This is also due to the fact that they are also sold as fleet vehicles and cannot fit that requirement without being assembled domestically, so they have been doing this waay since the 80s for some better known models across the board. This negates the argument for the idea of "foreign vs. domestic" since it becomes more semantics in this sense and exposes the real root of the reliability problem which is not just brand or engineering, but rather WHO assembled the cars i.e. UAW.

The real difference is when you actually see a live production line, you take a look at the workers who are in charge of assembling your vehicle every step of the way - this also includes robotics. I have been lucky enough to visit the Lexus assembly plant in Tahara, as well as the one in Georgetown, KY for their maiden production of the ES. You will not believe how much difference there is in the quality of work. In Japan, each assembly worker is a specialist, and for items requiring intricate detail such as body fitment, panel gaps, alignment and such - right down to sticker/label placement - they use women. Each one is highly trained, much of the time blindfolded and taken through years of sensory training that results in not only patience, but a high level of attention to detail that is unmatched within domestic assembly. They can not only identify panel misalignment by sight, but also in some cases measure the gaps by feel right down to the millimeter. This goes right down the assembly line with very strict tolerances for paint, welding, laser alignment and cutting, fasteners, you name it. Every one is an expert at all jobs and can fill in should someone be missing without much of a capability gap. Every third engine is tested for tolerances and operation, and in the case of special models ("F" series cars) every single one is tested. Now compared to the tolerances within our domestic plants, and the general attitude and practices of UAW workers, along with testing of every 50 or more engines, you can see why we have issues with domestically assembled vehicles. If you ever noticed, your control boxes are labeled with colors instead of connector labels such as T15 etc. It is so lazy and dumbed down, it gives you an idea who is at the line. I even have come across many new vehicles I had out for fleet delivery that were not connected properly when new. The attention to detail remains in what we consider premium brands such as Audi/Porsche/BMW/Mercedes, with their weakness being low lifespan due to heavy use of new materials/eco friendly composites. In all the sum of their production from engineering to parts sourcing to assembly is what determines the overall vehicle lifespan, and how well it was or wasn't assembled correctly bears the heaviest weight in that equation.

Grumpy Bear · June 23, 2020

10 hours ago, truckguy82 said:

Toyota still uses port injection on a motor released in 2007. Their top tier engine has been surpassed in efficiency and power. This would make other motors “higher performing” and “better”

Toyota’s interiors feel old, like 2 generations behind. Most people want to spend time in nicer interiors in the same way most people would want a modern house interior instead of one built in the 90’s or older.

GMC = nicer inside, more efficient, faster, more capable, safer

ford = same

dodge = way way way nicer inside

toyota = more reliable. I can’t think of one single benefit to buying a tundra other than it being more reliable

A katana sword as a comparison? Come on, that’s a single strip of metal being compared to 100’s of moving precision parts, hydraulics, and computers.

If bragging rights to power are your stick of measure then how could I possible protest. However let it be noted that the stick you measure with is yours. Mine is other. Reliable and fuss free trump absolute peak dyno power I will never have a need to access or efficiency percentages that please the EPA but render little real world benifit whisper silent in the world in which I live.

Relevant thought is that half the members of this community would enjoy nothing more than the reappearance of SPI/DPI systems to rid themselves of the down sides of GDI such as valve coking and a good deal more would applaud the absence of AFM/DFM and stop start technologies. Correct me please if I error in this regard. You yourself have voiced as much.

Efficiency for the sake of efficiency does not lay at the feet of GDI. Honda in example in both the twin wide band control and stratified charge motors of the past created fuel numbers in the 40 to mid 50 mpg range that current GDI is still incapable of in all but the most elite Benz and VW offerings. This done several decades ago. Two decades ago Honda achieved emissions numbers that clear for yet another two decades to come with port injection.

As far as nicer? I sit in my 2015 and I see absolutely no other material within the cabin than plastic save the window and mirror glass. In a dozen different forms and textures, plastic none the less, plain, pebbled, metalized, smooth, woven, colored, clear, opaque....

Sitting in a 2020 I see nothing more. I see something less. Plastic, dead, cold, it creeks and cracks and lacks life and the ability to enhance life in a way that engenders luxury. Wife owns a GMC and the dash is full of folded paper dinner napkins and matchbook covers holding pops and squeaks at bay the dealer tired of finding a remedy for.

As for the Katana. I feel sorry for you that you see it as a 'single piece of steel' instead of what it is.

Doublebase · June 26, 2020

On 6/21/2020 at 9:05 PM, poconojoe said:

Uhggg....there's no way in heck I would buy a foreign vehicle. I support my country. I know I'm gonna catch heck for that statement, but that's how I feel. I'm very patriotic.

And don't tell me they make them, fix them and sell the parts here, because I'll ask you where do the profits ultimately go? If more people buy American, those factories, repair and parts places would still be working. They'd be working on American vehicles.

I know it's hard to buy completely American these days, and that's ashame. Heck, even Harley uses Showa shocks and a lot of the electronics on our vehicles are foreign made.

But I try the best I can.

So, beat me up, ban me, try and shame me....whatever...

God bless America! And all of you too!

I understand what you’re saying, but I think you’re missing the mark in some very big areas with it.

Lets take Toyota and Honda, for example. I believe both companies make a fair amount of their vehicles in the US and employ Americans to do it. I’d also add that both companies - or any foreign car company - employs hundreds of thousands of Americans in their factories, dealerships...and also are a HUGE repair income for independent garage owners.

My own brother-in-law works for a Honda dealership. He’s the service manager. He worked his way up the ladder, moving around from Honda dealer to Honda dealer. He’s able to provide for his family because of Honda cars. He makes $150,000 a year as the service manager and they gave him a Honda Pilot for a demo.

It’s really not WHERE these car companies come from, it’s who they employ and how it effects the economy and Americans. And these companies help our people. That’s what this country is about, knowing how and when to let foreign companies in to help our people. I look at it like, America actually takes good advantage of these countries/companies, for its own benefit. That’s what free trade is. No country has done that better than the US. I’m proud of that.

Doublebase · June 26, 2020

Alright, so I ended up buying a vehicle (please don’t make fun of me too much), I ended up buying a 2016 loaded Toyota Avalon.

I didn’t really waaant an Avalon, I had no intentions of really buying it when I went to test drive it. BUT when I drove it?? Oh my god! Blown away. Smooth, quiet, huge inside, I could really stretch out. The thing has some serious power, yet I’ve averaged 29.6 mpg since I’ve bought it (120 miles of spirited driving with the AC on).

Bought it off a little old lady. Thing is mint. 50,000 miles, garaged, new tires and brakes. Not a single scratch. I asked her about maintenance - she said she got the oil changed ever three months - I was like, every three months?? She said, yeah of course. Sold. She had me then. Retired teacher...she’s moving to N. Carolina and can’t bring the thing with her. She was asking $15,000 (which was probably $4,000 under what others are going for loaded). I tried to talk her down a little bit...she basically put me over he knee and spanked me...”the last guy tried offering me $14,500, he’s not here and the car is, so if you want it it’s $15,000. I paid $36,000 for it three years ago”. I stood there like...crap, she’s got me. I usually will never pay full price on a private sale, but she had me dead to rights. I did it. The lady was SHARP as a tack. So quick witted. Definitely would have hated to have her as a teacher. She made me drive to the bank with her and have the money wired to her account. She wouldn’t take a certified bank check because she said that I could cancel it within 24 hours and she’d be out of the money. Wow. So we sat in that bank and she signed the title over to me right there when the money was wired (she wouldn’t even sign It until she got confirmation the money had gone through). Then she says, what’s you address? I left the spare key at my house and I’ll have to mail it. I hope she mails that damn key. Haha.

Anyway, love this car. But now I’m out of a truck. Probably going to buy a truck for my son (his first car/truck). That way I can use it, but it’ll be a $2,000 dollar crap box.

Really going to miss this place. I joined the Avalon forum...it’s a total ghost town. Crickets. Nothing. No one writes there...there’s nothing to write about. The cars really don’t break down and I think the owners are so old, they don’t even drive the damn cars. So I might stop in here from time to time just to write about cars (I always like doing that.).

KARNUT · June 26, 2020

Alright, so I ended up buying a vehicle (please don’t make fun of me too much), I ended up buying a 2016 loaded Toyota Avalon.

I didn’t really waaant an Avalon, I had no intentions of really buying it when I went to test drive it. BUT when I drove it?? Oh my god! Blown away. Smooth, quiet, huge inside, I could really stretch out. The thing has some serious power, yet I’ve averaged 29.6 mpg since I’ve bought it (120 miles of spirited driving with the AC on).

Bought it off a little old lady. Thing is mint. 50,000 miles, garaged, new tires and brakes. Not a single scratch. I asked her about maintenance - she said she got the oil changed ever three months - I was like, every three months?? She said, yeah of course. Sold. She had me then. Retired teacher...she’s moving to N. Carolina and can’t bring the thing with her. She was asking $15,000 (which was probably $4,000 under what others are going for loaded). I tried to talk her down a little bit...she basically put me over he knee and spanked me...”the last guy tried offering me $14,500, he’s not here and the car is, so if you want it it’s $15,000. I paid $36,000 for it three years ago”. I stood there like...crap, she’s got me. I usually will never pay full price on a private sale, but she had me dead to rights. I did it. The lady was SHARP as a tack. So quick witted. Definitely would have hated to have her as a teacher. She made me drive to the bank with her and have the money wired to her account. She wouldn’t take a certified bank check because she said that I could cancel it within 24 hours and she’d be out of the money. Wow. So we sat in that bank and she signed the title over to me right there when the money was wired (she wouldn’t even sign It until she got confirmation the money had gone through). Then she says, what’s you address? I left the spare key at my house and I’ll have to mail it. I hope she mails that damn key. Haha.

Anyway, love this car. But now I’m out of a truck. Probably going to buy a truck for my son (his first car/truck). That way I can use it, but it’ll be a $2,000 dollar crap box.

Really going to miss this place. I joined the Avalon forum...it’s a total ghost town. Crickets. Nothing. No one writes there...there’s nothing to write about. The cars really don’t break down and I think the owners are so old, they don’t even drive the damn cars. So I might stop in here from time to time just to write about cars (I always like doing that.).

I had a few Toyota’s, last one a 17 Camry. My daughter has it now. Never had a problem with any of them. Yea, the enthusiasm forums for them are unenthusiastic.

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poconojoe · June 26, 2020

3 hours ago, Doublebase said:

I understand what you’re saying, but I think you’re missing the mark in some very big areas with it.

Lets take Toyota and Honda, for example. I believe both companies make a fair amount of their vehicles in the US and employ Americans to do it. I’d also add that both companies - or any foreign car company - employs hundreds of thousands of Americans in their factories, dealerships...and also are a HUGE repair income for independent garage owners.

My own brother-in-law works for a Honda dealership. He’s the service manager. He worked his way up the ladder, moving around from Honda dealer to Honda dealer. He’s able to provide for his family because of Honda cars. He makes $150,000 a year as the service manager and they gave him a Honda Pilot for a demo.

It’s really not WHERE these car companies come from, it’s who they employ and how it effects the economy and Americans. And these companies help our people. That’s what this country is about, knowing how and when to let foreign companies in to help our people. I look at it like, America actually takes good advantage of these countries/companies, for its own benefit. That’s what free trade is. No country has done that better than the US. I’m proud of that.

Your brother in law and all the dealers, repair shops, factory workers, etc. would still be working if everyone bought American vehicles. They'd just be working for American companies, repairing, building, selling American vehicles.

When it comes to the whole global economy roost, all you have to do is look at the Euro, the whole EU thing. Why do you think the Brits fought for Brexit? The counties that a doing the right thing and have great economies become diluted by the countries that have tanked their economies. It brings down their value and brings up the value of the countries that were not doing well. It all just averages out.

A few years back, there was talk of creating the Amero. They wanted to combine the economies of North, South and Central America, just like the Euro. What do you think that would have done to our economy?

When I was a kid, the only foreign cars we saw were maybe the occasional MG or possibly an XKE Jaguar. We called the foreign jobs. The in the 70's came Toyota and Datsun (now Nissan). And over these few decades they have assaulted our economy and it's our own fault.

lucas287 · June 26, 2020

4 hours ago, Doublebase said:

Really going to miss this place. I joined the Avalon forum...it’s a total ghost town. Crickets. Nothing. No one writes there...there’s nothing to write about. The cars really don’t break down and I think the owners are so old, they don’t even drive the damn cars. So I might stop in here from time to time just to write about cars (I always like doing that.).

I died when I read this lol!! So true. Happy for you man. Two cars ago I had a Accord Hybrid. Wish I never got rid of it honestly. For the 25,000 miles I owned it, I average 46 mpg. Quiet, smooth. What more do you need? I already had a truck too - an old crap box 2000 Silverado with 312,000 miles on it. Still have it so there are days when I'm tempted to sell my newer 2016 Silverado and just get another car and call it a day.

Grumpy Bear · June 26, 2020

5 hours ago, Doublebase said:

Really going to miss this place. I joined the Avalon forum...it’s a total ghost town. Crickets. Nothing. No one writes there...there’s nothing to write about. The cars really don’t break down and I think the owners are so old, they don’t even drive the damn cars. So I might stop in here from time to time just to write about cars (I always like doing that.).

Avalon is a NICE car. Good find and shame you trying to chisel a senior!!

Crickets sounds good

Peaceful

KARNUT · June 26, 2020

Your brother in law and all the dealers, repair shops, factory workers, etc. would still be working if everyone bought American vehicles. They'd just be working for American companies, repairing, building, selling American vehicles.

When it comes to the whole global economy roost, all you have to do is look at the Euro, the whole EU thing. Why do you think the Brits fought for Brexit? The counties that a doing the right thing and have great economies become diluted by the countries that have tanked their economies. It brings down their value and brings up the value of the countries that were not doing well. It all just averages out.

A few years back, there was talk of creating the Amero. They wanted to combine the economies of North, South and Central America, just like the Euro. What do you think that would have done to our economy?

When I was a kid, the only foreign cars we saw were maybe the occasional MG or possibly an XKE Jaguar. We called the foreign jobs. The in the 70's came Toyota and Datsun (now Nissan). And over these few decades they have assaulted our economy and it's our own fault.

If it wasn’t for Honda and Toyota America made cars would have never improved. I started buying cars in the early 70s. My first was an RX3 Mazda. No America made engine would had handled the abuse I gave that Rotary engine. One year 60K miles 2 transmissions and rear ends. Not many America made cars could stay with it. I was still in third gear at 115 mph. 1-2 shift 90 percent of the time was flat shifted at red line. My next car 74 barracuda was huffing smoke at 40K miles at 5k shifts. Marriage slowed me for awhile. American made cars were hopeless for 2 decades after that. Still haven’t completely caught up, but better.

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CamaroVetteGuy · July 1, 2020

I have a 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser that is my daily driver. 203.5k miles. Never a CEL, never in the shop besides maintenance and brakes. Built in Japan.
2019 Trail Boss already to the shop 2 times. I hope it’s a good truck. Part of me wanted a Tundra for the rock solid Powertrain, but the truck is old in terms of design and tech.
I love my TB. It’s a better truck all around than the Tundra. Just not sure how reliable it will be

Nitrousbird · July 2, 2020

On 6/19/2020 at 6:04 AM, Chad2815 said:

Been looking at Tundras closely myself.

So you want a new 2007? Engine update in 2010, facelift in '14. Will be the same truck through 2021. Embarrassing for Toyota to be honest and the sales reflect that. For the right price I would have bought one when I got mine, but honestly a loaded one is only worth the upper 30's compared to what everyone (even Nissan) has to offer. And they don't sell the well optioned one for anywhere near the 30's new.

Chad2815 · July 3, 2020

1 hour ago, Nitrousbird said:

So you want a new 2007? Engine update in 2010, facelift in '14. Will be the same truck through 2021. Embarrassing for Toyota to be honest and the sales reflect that. For the right price I would have bought one when I got mine, but honestly a loaded one is only worth the upper 30's compared to what everyone (even Nissan) has to offer. And they don't sell the well optioned one for anywhere near the 30's new.

Nah......just want a truck that doesn't shake my kids in the back seat like they are sitting on a washing machine or have to be in the shop 5 times a year. Embarrassing when someone rides in a 65 thousand dollar Denali that trembles like a dog shitting peach seeds. I still have mine just because its finally paid for and I cant bring myself to buy anything else and I do love alot of the features but it would be nice to have more confidence in the build quality.

JimCost2014 · July 3, 2020

13 minutes ago, Chad2815 said:

Denali that trembles like a dog shitting peach seeds. I still have mine just because its finally paid for and I cant bring myself to buy anything else

You sir, might be offered a job from the GM marketing team with a quote like that

Chad2815 · July 3, 2020

17 minutes ago, JimCost2014 said:

You sir, might be offered a job from the GM marketing team with a quote like that

Very technical explanation I know......love that Centennial Edition by the way.

JimCost2014 · July 3, 2020

6 minutes ago, Chad2815 said:

Very technical explanation I know......love that Centennial Edition by the way.

it was very much in laymen's terms, just puts a picture in your mind that you can not unsee… So if someone see's a dog struggling to go #2, it will remind them to buy a Denali