Cooling System Towing Test Results, Before/After Mods

[Jon A]

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

So...that said. I set a hard limit at 212 F and add enough cooler to make that happen vs the expected and unexpected and an appropriate thermostat to set a reasonable floor.

That would be nice, but it's just not practical if you work an engine hard for extended periods of time.  To do that on one of these trucks you'd need a massive aftermarket air/oil cooler in front of the radiator, which would destroy your A/C performance and significantly reduce your radiator's efficiency.  Just not worth it IMHO for the tradeoffs alone, not to mention the cost and PITA factor. 

 

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 If your going to accept 250F as 'normal' 10K oil changes might by a gamble??? Give it some thought.

 

I'm not really interested in trying to run the oil 10K+ when I do a lot of towing, I mainly just want to give the engine better protection when it's working hard than the 0W20 will.  I've already dropped the temps a pretty large amount; that combined with an oil that does better at those temps should amount to a big improvement over stock.

 

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

John has done some GREAT work here and shown us the limits of the OEM systems in a practical way. It would be a shame to ignore such research.

 

Thanks.

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, Jon A said:

I'm not really interested in trying to run the oil 10K+ when I do a lot of towing, I mainly just want to give the engine better protection when it's working hard than the 0W20 will.  I've already dropped the temps a pretty large amount; that combined with an oil that does better at those temps should amount to a big improvement over stock.

Yep, if you can't cool it, change it more often. (Sorry I misspelled your name)

 

Cooling is as effective and an increase in SAE viscosity. But as you can see below the 0W20 would have to run about 40F cooler to have the same viscosity as the 5W30 at the higher temperature. As you already have effected a 40 degree drop adding the one API grade higher spec is actually a two step jump. Your stuff is going to last awhile 

 

[Centex14]

All of this is great information but has there been any evidence to support that you’ll get longer engine life other than what is speculated here? I once got all wrapped up in monitoring all of my temps and trying to keep things under certain numbers that I read on the internet (ironically the same numbers in this thread were brought up on the diesel threads as well). After years and who knows how much money spent on coolers and fluids etc, I came to realize that it’s all just speculation and theory on paper and that in reality my engine and transmission were going to last well beyond the rest of the truck by just following the owners manual. Since then I’ve taken several vehicles well over a 100k and a couple over 200k miles with no issues. My family that runs a farm and tows heavy often has taken several vehicles well over a 100k and 200k with no break downs. My in laws, friends, etc. All of them run well over a 100k miles and some over 200k with no failures in engines or transmissions. And this is a combination of loaded and unloaded.

I worry about the uneducated (not meant to be derogatory) people who come to these forums and read threads like this and without knowing what they are reading, they start throwing money at things that they don’t need to because some really smart people said some really big words.

Worrying about trans temps and coolant temps and oil temps is useful for .5% of people who tow regularly and heavy and if you are towing that often and heavy you should probably step up the truck size. The other 99.5% of folks will never have a need to worry about things like this.


2014 z71 LTZ
Volant Intake
Borla Exhaust
Diablo
Bilstein 5100
Rough Country Level

[Jon A]

6 hours ago, Centex14 said:

All of this is great information but has there been any evidence to support that you’ll get longer engine life other than what is speculated here?

Yes.  There are literally thousands of SAE papers studying the oiling system and various wear rates, the effects of differing viscosities, temperatures, oil types (synthetic vs. non), etc.  It's based upon these from which generic charts such as this come:

 

 

These are concepts well known to the industry, not crazy ideas some millennial made up and put on the internet.   OEM's typically put warnings (or in the case of boosted engines, will cut boost) when the oil exceeds 260 degrees or so to save the engine--same goes for the transmission.  Quite a few people with these trucks have run into the oil or transmission oil warning lights when towing.  My data in this thread shows even towing well below max on a pretty moderate pass is enough to get those fluids well above what is good for the engine or transmission.  Just because you don't get a warning light telling you to pull over doesn't mean you're not accelerating wear in a significant way.  Especially when using extremely thin oils in light duty (must meet CAFE standards) trucks.   Here's a good overview on that subject:  https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils

 

Here's a snippet:

 

In other words, an SAE 20 at 190°F is about the same kinematic viscosity as an SAE 30 at 220°F, which is about the same viscosity as an SAE 40 at 240°F. This approximation works well in the 190°F to 260°F temperature range. One might be surprised at the slight amount of difference between straight viscosity vs. multiviscosity oils with the same back number (for example, SAE 30, SAE 5W-30, and SAE 10W-30).  If an SAE 50 oil at 260°F is as thin as an SAE 20 oil at 190°F, imagine how thin the oil film becomes when you are using an SAE 5W-20 and your engine overheats. When an engine overheats, the oil film becomes dangerously thin and can rupture.

7 hours ago, Centex14 said:

 tows heavy often has taken several vehicles well over a 100k and 200k with no break downs.

 

And how may of those were 1/2 ton trucks?  If any, please provide details.  If they were all HD's, that's really apples and oranges.  They are designed from the ground up for such use and included dramatically larger cooling systems (when fan power is taken into account) with lots of extra coolers.  They also don't come with 0W20 oil in the pan.

 

7 hours ago, Centex14 said:

I worry about the uneducated (not meant to be derogatory) people who come to these forums and read threads like this and without knowing what they are reading, they start throwing money at things that they don’t need to because some really smart people said some really big words.

 

It may have been helpful to read the thread before bashing it.  In this thread I only tested a $20 aftermarket engine thermostat and tuning software for the fans (but has many other uses).  About the cost of one single aftermarket wheel.  Less than 1/2 the cost of many catback exhaust systems people here like (including your Borla catback) even if you throw in a new transmission thermostat on top.  But people really NEED those things, right? 

 

7 hours ago, Centex14 said:

Worrying about trans temps and coolant temps and oil temps is useful for .5% of people who tow regularly and heavy and if you are towing that often and heavy you should probably step up the truck size. The other 99.5% of folks will never have a need to worry about things like this.

 

Again, reading the thread would be helpful.  It was specifically aimed at those to do tow a fair amount with their trucks.  It's right in the title.

[Grumpy Bear]

11 hours ago, Centex14 said:

I worry about the uneducated (not meant to be derogatory) people who come to these forums and read threads like this and without knowing what they are reading, they start throwing money at things that they don’t need to because some really smart people said some really big words.

Worrying about trans temps and coolant temps and oil temps is useful for .5% of people who tow regularly and heavy and if you are towing that often and heavy you should probably step up the truck size. The other 99.5% of folks will never have a need to worry about things like this.

So in a nut shell you believe that the people who read such threads who would like to know the truth and could benefit from such exchanges of information should be deprived of that information because you feel there is some segment of readers who lack the wisdom to properly apply the truth?

 

(not meant to be derogatory) Really? How so?

[Grumpy Bear]

 

Chart of the day. Thanks Jon! 

[Centex14]

I read the whole thread. I’ve read several of these threads. Great information. Never knocked it. But I’ve also lived, learned, and been around long enough to know that to much information in the wrong hands is just as harmful as not enough information. That chart is great as it’s an easy thing to digest and comprehend.

 

 

 

2014 z71 LTZ

Volant Intake

Borla Exhaust

Diablo

Bilstein 5100

Rough Country Level

 

[Grumpy Bear]

10 hours ago, Centex14 said:

I read the whole thread. I’ve read several of these threads. Great information. Never knocked it. But I’ve also lived, learned, and been around long enough to know that to much information in the wrong hands is just as harmful as not enough information. That chart is great as it’s an easy thing to digest and comprehend.

You do know that once you hit send to a recipient that has 'instant reply' it is received without edits, right?

 

 I read the whole thread. I’ve read several of your threads. Great information. Never knocked it. But I’ve also lived, learned, and been around long enough to know that to much information in the wrong hands is just as harmful as not enough information. All of your charts and graphs are great but at the end of the day you’ve yet to prove that doing all of this and monitoring all of this is going to keep my engine and transmission running for 10k or 20k or a 100k additional miles beyond what it would run with just following the manufacturers recommendation. If I’m going to go through the hassle of swapping thermostats and buying fancy oils and running auxiliary coolers then there needs to be a return on my investment. To me, this stuff is like catch cans. It’s cool to talk about on the internet but for the average Joe it’s just noise because at the end of the day it doesn’t matter. Just like my thoughts and opinions don’t matter and of which I’m sure you’ll break down and attack line by line like you do anyone who challenges you.

 

You seem to think quite highly of yourself. As I read it you believe that only your thoughts matter; that others should be censured until they can prove to YOU the information's worth? You seem to believe you are SUPERIOR and have some knowing that those 'uneducated' people don't have. Your experience trumps science. You even think your important enough that you should be granted special considerations.

 

Derogatory? Your not 'knocking"? You got something right though. I don't like your opinions but not because they are opinions but because you like many like to offer them as PROOF on one thing or another. That sir is the worst kind of misuse of information possible. It isn't information...it's opinion. 

[Pearl2017]

Appreciation for the provided data! ...I'd like to add a different perspective that any unwashed unedumacated minion should understand :-). The simplified statement being made here is that temperature is the enemy. This is true not only in a mechanical device but in all of nature. The higher the temperature the faster all things will degrade plain and simple. Think about it, we put vegetables in the fridge to keep them fresh longer and we put meat in a deep freeze bc it almost completely halts its breakdown until it is ready to be used. An old car sitting in a field will oxidize over may years but that same old car with enough heat applied will oxidize in minutes. This is the nature of the world we live in and cannot be refuted by anyone's mis-perceptions of natures subtleties occurring all around them. A $20 thermostat may add a day, month or year to how long the truck functions but it is a bonus something ...not nothing. The "if its not in the manual..." crowd may disagree with this view.

[Grumpy Bear]

3 hours ago, Pearl2017 said:

Appreciation for the provided data! ...I'd like to add a different perspective that any unwashed unedumacated minion should understand :-). The simplified statement being made here is that temperature is the enemy. This is true not only in a mechanical device but in all of nature. The higher the temperature the faster all things will degrade plain and simple. Think about it, we put vegetables in the fridge to keep them fresh longer and we put meat in a deep freeze bc it almost completely halts its breakdown until it is ready to be used. An old car sitting in a field will oxidize over may years but that same old car with enough heat applied will oxidize in minutes. This is the nature of the world we live in and cannot be refuted by anyone's mis-perceptions of natures subtleties occurring all around them. A $20 thermostat may add a day, month or year to how long the truck functions but it is a bonus something ...not nothing. The "if its not in the manual..." crowd may disagree with this view.

Well said!!

 

Jon, myself and a few others put 'eyes' inside these things. We collect data. We graph that data. We SHARE what we collect. 99% of the time it corelates to some published ASTM or SAE technical paper. We share that too.  Heat in mechanical devises is one of the most studied aspects of engineering. As Pearl shares, it is with good reason. To imply it is useless? That is laughable. To imply it's harmful is just hateful. 

 

I would say this to ANYONE whose sights are set so low as to accept 100K as a fair service life for a gas motor to 'get out more often'. 200K can be done falling off your barstool. Fact is, until I reach 300K I don't feel you've anything special at all. 

 

Now....keeping the rest of the vehicle in tact long enough to enjoy the fruit of your labors may be a bit more of a challenge. You have the entire world of automotive manufacturing working against you. That and every dingbat with a shopping cart. Drunk. Deer.  That is another topic. 

 

My last three all over 200K. Use no oil, within 5 lbs. on compression test and in spec for new. None with leak down rates over 10%.

Now ask me if I care if anyone believes that?  How could it diminish by benefit? 

 

AGAIN, Jon, your work on this topic is first rate and I hope this unbelievable outburst of disrespect for this type of work will not hinder your further sharing.  For our sakes. I know you wouldn't stop for yourself. 

[KARNUT]

Nothing technical to add just life experience. I bought a 3/4 ton 91 Dodge diesel for gooseneck pulling. I generally put 100K miles on them then they became crew trucks or traded in. I pulled heavy and was legal. It just happened that it’s last pulled before 100K was Florida doing demos for the DOT. The trip home 1200 miles was in the summer nearing 100 degrees. Highway speed in fourth gear was near red line engine temp touching red. Amsoil oil, with no extra cooling. That truck even did some lighter pulling in 2002 for the summer. That truck just happened to be one we kept 15 years never a problem. The third time around the odometer quit. Our pulling trucks were worked hard other than performance modifications synthetics were used. Redline, amsoil most. Gauges have normal ranges for a reason, staying there is all that’s required.


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[Jon A]

Sorry for the delay, haven't been online much the past couple of months.

 

On 10/13/2018 at 7:55 PM, Centex14 said:

I read the whole thread.

 

Respectfully, you didn't.  When you go on to say you need a return on investment for the hassle and cost of adding auxiliary coolers, it's very clear you did not.  In this thread I show how they are very unlikely to be needed by anybody with one of these trucks and what improvements can be had from much more simple and cheap improvements.

 

On 10/13/2018 at 7:55 PM, Centex14 said:

I’ve read several of these threads.

 

I'm going to have to call BS on that as well.  I've been on various automotive boards since they were invented and (no offense intended to everybody here) the level of technical discussion on the "truck boards" isn't something to brag about.  In most of "these threads" you'll find nothing but anecdotal data, and people without a clue how things work all wanting to give their "2 cents."  Half will be saying things such as the thermostat will make no difference once the engine is at normal operating temp, others will be saying that the fans don't do anything at highway speeds, etc.  I didn't conduct back-to-back tests in the most scientific manor possible and collect all that data just so this would be lumped in with "those threads." 

 

If you have any other threads in mind that really are similar to this one, please provide links.  I always like to see good test data.

 

On 10/13/2018 at 5:36 AM, Centex14 said:

I worry about the uneducated (not meant to be derogatory) people who come to these forums and read threads like this and without knowing what they are reading, they start throwing money at things that they don’t need to because some really smart people said some really big words.

 

So you're the type of guy GM had in mind when they decided to make our temp gauges stick at 210 over the span of 35 degrees or so.  "What they don't know probably won't hurt them?"  "As long as it makes it to the end of the warranty, let's do what we can to keep them from bothering us?"  However, even they decided they had better give us accurate trans temp readings (the gauge on the Denali is dead nuts on and it's available in the DIC of other trucks).

 

On 10/13/2018 at 7:55 PM, Centex14 said:

That chart is great as it’s an easy thing to digest and comprehend.

 

Thanks.  They have the same for transmissions as well:

 

 

Admittedly many of those are out of date and won't be perfectly accurate for the most modern synthetic fluids so they need to be taken with a grain of salt, but if you think the general trend is somehow not followed by the transmission in your truck, I'd like to see any data that makes you think so.

 

On 10/13/2018 at 7:55 PM, Centex14 said:

But I’ve also lived, learned, and been around long enough to know that to much information in the wrong hands is just as harmful as not enough information.

 

If you think peoples' own fluid temps is too much information for them to handle, you have a low opinion of people.  The truth is most people with these trucks have no idea what their oil temp is when towing (have to scan for it) and unless they check for it have no idea what their trans temp is.  Hopefully this thread not only opened their eyes to it, but provided some simple solutions for them if they decide they need to do something about it.  Because I'm willing to bet "most people" won't agree with your contention that oil temps 260+ or trans temps 240+ are nothing to worry about if they want to keep the truck long term.

 

On 10/16/2018 at 6:11 AM, KARNUT said:

 I bought a 3/4 ton 91 Dodge diesel for gooseneck pulling.

 

Thanks, but I really don't think being able to run the wheels off a HD with a Cummins without worry is all that relevant to people with 1/2 tons with aluminum gas engines with much smaller cooling system and lighter duty transmissions.

[KARNUT]

Sorry for the delay, haven't been online much the past couple of months.
 
 
Thanks, but I really don't think being able to run the wheels off a HD with a Cummins without worry is all that relevant to people with 1/2 tons with aluminum gas engines with much smaller cooling system and lighter duty transmissions.

Sure it is, if your staying in the green range no additional cooling required. Any equipment put under extreme conditions is going to benefit with synthetics. We had a truck that just pulled a camper. The first C-6 transmission went 80K miles. With rebuild we added amsoil trans fluid. Years later and 180K additional miles transmission was still going. No additional cooling.


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[Jon A]

2 hours ago, KARNUT said:

Sure it is, if your staying in the green range no additional cooling required.

You could make a case that might be true if Cummins engines and the light duty 1/2 ton engines and transmissions had the same expected use and durability requirements.  They don't.  "In the green" for one application can be in the red for an application you expect to be run at a higher duty cycle for much longer.  We have two Cummins as well and neither of them let the fluids get that hot.  Ever.  Complete apples and oranges.  I didn't post this in the HD section for a reason.  Most HD owners really don't need to worry about these things.

 

It also ignores the point that many here have found these trucks won't always stay "in the green," even when towing well within their limits.  They have gotten warning messages telling them to pull the heck over and idle the truck before they destroy the darn thing.  The information above will allow them to avoid having this ever happen again and remove the worry of that happening from the back of their minds every time they have to tow in hot weather.  It will allow the people who don't believe running the fluids "just under the warning message temp" is the best idea for long term durability keep the fluids at much more reasonable temps.   Talking about how long a Cummins lasts is of little help to the subject at hand.

[Barman84]

Guessing you live in PNW somewhere in Washington.  I’ve noticed driving around here even in 50 degree temps my transmission gets hotter than it ever did in Texas.  

 

If you hsve a shop id love for you to adjust my fans.