5th wheel with 1/2 ton

[calgator73]

^{In terms of user recommendations the following four points}

^{should be considered for promulgation to the trailer towing}

^public:

^{• Minimize hitch load consistent with acceptable}

^{trailer damping}

^{• Minimize load leveling torque consistent with}

^{rear tire load rating}

^{• Use air shocks for additional leveling as}

^necessary

^{• Maintain front/rear tire pressure differential}

^{(F < R)}

[Jon A]

The only real issue is that you'll still easily exceed GVWR with anything short of a 3500 with most of the pin weights out there. I know it's just a number... If my math is right I'm very close to maxing out my 3/4 with the same trailer I pulled with my 1/2.

 

Yes, that’s going to be the limiting factor. The 2015 NHT’s arbitrarily added 400 lbs of payload are quite helpful for those wanting to go this route. Most NHT’s now should have an actual payload capacity very close to 2000 lbs and a rear axle capacity somewhere around 1800. Most of the “made for ½ ton” 5^th wheels are listed well under those dry and even loaded up wouldn’t exceed those numbers by a huge margin if done smartly. But yes, you’ll probably hit those numbers long before the 12,000 total trailer weight.

 

Back to the original subject, the 2500’s provide a bit of an illustration into the difference—max tongue weight for bumper pull is 1500 lbs. Max pin weight for gooseneck/5^th wheel: 3000 lbs. That’s a pretty clear indication they’re saying the truck can handle weight on the pin much better than it can handle it hanging off the rear bumper.

 

The same physics apply to ½ tons, I think historically the payloads have been so low they’ve just never bothered to give them a separate rating. It’ll be interesting to see if this changes now that Nissan is upping the level of competition in the ½ ton segment. It's coming with a gooseneck hitch from the factory!

 

^{In terms of user recommendations the following four points}

^{should be considered for promulgation to the trailer towing}

^public:

^{• Minimize hitch load consistent with acceptable}

^{trailer damping}

^{• Minimize load leveling torque consistent with}

^{rear tire load rating}

^{• Use air shocks for additional leveling as}

^necessary

^{• Maintain front/rear tire pressure differential}

^{(F < R)}

 

Yes, those all seem in line with my thinking. It's interesting they mention differential tire pressure--this goes back to the discussion where I was explaining the relative ride frequencies front to rear--higher tire pressure in the rear will increase the frequency in the rear somewhat. Not as much as a set of airbags or airshocks, but with some setups every little bit is going to help.

 

It sounds like the main necessity for the leveling torque in their tests was to get the rear axle load below the tire ratings. With a high RAWR and LT tires all you're really looking to do is improve the ride quality. With a heavier, longer wheelbase 2500 it should be less sensitive either way--it should ride better with little/no leveling torque and probably be safer with too much than a 1/2 ton (especially short box). It'll be interesting to hear what you end up with. Either way, I think the 2500 will definitely be more forgiving than your 1500 was. But if you're looking for the nicest towing experience a 5th wheel is going to beat the bumper pull no matter what you do to it.

[calgator73]

We've already had one good tow with it. Just some nice gentle porpoising on severe disturbances that quickly arrested itself. I think if I had elected to go with the 8' bed the larger lever arm would further reduce that movement. Oddly enough I ended up with the exact same hitch settings as my 1500. I may install airbags so I can pull washers out of my hitch....but that will decrease sway control. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

One other aspect that may help the over steer issue is simply increasing tread width while retaining the same overall diameter.

 

Supposedly the truck can sense trailer sway and apply TT brakes to resolve. I wonder if that sway control can also sense oversteer (effectively the same movement) to reduce probability of jack knifing if someone were to screw up and aggressively take an exit.

 

Does J2807 disable electronic aides to stability and sway to ascertain the ability of the vehicle?

[kstruckcountry]

All I'll say is good luck selling a half ton with holes in it from a 5th wheel hitch... No one with half an once of common sense will touch it when you could get one thats main payload was groceries....

[KARNUT]

All I'll say is good luck selling a half ton with holes in it from a 5th wheel hitch... No one with half an once of common sense will touch it when you could get one thats main payload was groceries....

I wouldn't buy any used truck that had a fifth wheel hook up unless it was deeply discounted

 

 

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[Conky Conky]

Hey what ever its a truck its used for its intended purpose. I use my pickup as a pickup I haull shit pull shit and pull out stuck Fords with it. It pulls really good power wise suprisley with only 326HP 5.3. FYI the 454TBI only put put out sluggish 380 till 1995 then upped again with vortec system. I have brakes on my trailer tuned in good the unit stops on a dime even at 110km/h. O and our family friend owned a tow truck company and he's has drivers stopped for being over weight in 1 ton tow trucks with out even towing just the wrecker it self its to much for the older 3500 tow trucks but you see then every day so F off bust someone else's balls I w my trailer once a year.

[Jon A]

All I'll say is good luck selling a half ton with holes in it from a 5th wheel hitch... No one with half an once of common sense will touch it when you could get one thats main payload was groceries....

 

 

I wouldn't buy any used truck that had a fifth wheel hook up unless it was deeply discounted

 

 

Yeah, and I wouldn't buy one with a lift or even a level, aftermarket wheels/tires, any engine mods/programming of course, so I guess we had better not do any of those things to our trucks! Another thing everybody likes to say, but in the real world the vast, vast majority of us do not go through the hassle of trying to sell our trucks to a "picky individual."

 

We simply trade them in at the dealer when we want a new one. If you think you're going to get a single extra dollar credit from a dealer for not having a 5th wheel hitch, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in--don't worry, it doesn't have a hitch either.

[Jon A]

Supposedly the truck can sense trailer sway and apply TT brakes to resolve. I wonder if that sway control can also sense oversteer (effectively the same movement) to reduce probability of jack knifing if someone were to screw up and aggressively take an exit.

 

Does J2807 disable electronic aides to stability and sway to ascertain the ability of the vehicle?

 

I don't believe they actively disable any electronics, but they don't hook up the trailer brakes so any system that relies on them isn't going to be working. I think the anti-sway will still function using the vehicle brakes but I'm not sure of the extent. The general stability control is surely functioning as it's sort of impossible to disable over 35 MPH unless they modify the truck in ways not really in the spirit of the standard.

 

Anyway, I don't think these systems would make much difference one way or the other in testing though. Surely at least the stabilitrack would try and stop a jacknife as it's happening, but I don't think they ever get to that point in testing. Taking the truck up to speed in a deliberate manor with instrumentation, they can take it right to the threshold of when it's about to happen and take their measurements without actually crashing the vehicle. I don't think stabilitrac or any of the other systems would kick in at that point--I think you need to be sliding before they'll do anything.

 

So even if the systems could possibly save somebody in the real world under the right conditions, I don't think they'll allow a vehicle to score higher on the test.

[KARNUT]

 

 

 

 

Yeah, and I wouldn't buy one with a lift or even a level, aftermarket wheels/tires, any engine mods/programming of course, so I guess we had better not do any of those things to our trucks! Another thing everybody likes to say, but in the real world the vast, vast majority of us do not go through the hassle of trying to sell our trucks to a "picky individual."

 

We simply trade them in at the dealer when we want a new one. If you think you're going to get a single extra dollar credit from a dealer for not having a 5th wheel hitch, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in--don't worry, it doesn't have a hitch either.

Im almost 60, I've traded almost every two years for about 30 years, I always get more on trade in for an unmolested truck. The tunes I just remove, the fifth wheels I just put a drop in bed liner. The superchargers I've done I've left with no benefit or deduction. My trucks are always spotless and bring max trade in.

 

 

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[Jon A]

So you've proved my point for me. The hitch won't matter. Thanks.

[HOFFandGOLDMAN]

I think people forget that trucks are made for towing and hauling crap around. Lol. When i buy a truck, i'm looking at it as a tool and its going to use it like what its ment for. Towing and hauling. When anyone is buying a used 1/2 ton with a g/n hitch or 5th wheel rails they should realize that if its well maintained, its not any less discounted.

 

Imo towing from sightly ahead off the axle is 'safer' as far as handling and weight distribution. I rarely tow from the bumper. Unless its the boat.

[buckwuk]

I ran into this same thing when I got my travel trailer. Dealer guaranteed me my truck is well within the limits of a decent 5th wheel with how light they are. He said these words to me.."I have a Honda Ridgeline and I'm more than capable of pulling a 32" 5th wheel. Youll be fine with a 35"+ with your truck." So since I've already researched and seen what the pin weights and GVWR where for what they had I said some not so nice words to the guy and went somewhere else. The smallest 5th wheel they had I could pull but I wouldn't be happy with and I couldn't load any extra equipment or anything in it. I just decided on a nice travel trailer instead of a tiny 5th wheel I wouldn't enjoy.

[KARNUT]

I see 1/2 tons pulling light campers with 5th wheels all the time, rather see that than bumper pulled campers.

[vertigo]

I see 1/2 tons pulling light campers with 5th wheels all the time, rather see that than bumper pulled campers.

I would venture to say that well over 60% of those people are way over most of the manufacturers stated capacity.

Dangerous is dangerous, what does it matter if it is a bumper pull or 5th wheel?

[HOFFandGOLDMAN]

As someone who has a towing and rescue business and hauls cattle/horses all over western canada, i have seen a hell of a lot more accidents and people that hit the ditch with bumper pull trailers than gooseneck and 5th wheel trailers. 1/2 tons are light enough as is and all the weight directly on the back end of the trucks makes it terrible for weight distribution and 90% of the people say "i couldnt steer and the whole unit started swaying."

 

In fact i did a compairison. I sold a 1953 apache step side to a guy and i had to haul it, my gooseneck was unavailabe so i used my buddies 18' steel bumper pull with two 7000lb axles. The truck weighted 1860kg (4000lbs) without fuel, the trailer is 1360kg dry (3000lbs). All loaded up i was 3200kg rougly. I drove by a scale on my way to drop it off and on my rear axle of my 2014 gmc at 1500 with 3.24s i tipped it at 1900kg! Thats 200kg over what that axle is rated for. Keep in mind i loaded that 53 step side over the axles on that trailer and slighly ahead.

 

Three weeks ago i sold some beef yearlings, had to haul them to market. The trailer is a 20' gooseneck steel norbert with two 7000lb axles again, the trailer dry is 2200kg (5000lbs). Once i loaded up the trailer, could maybe have fit one more in, on my way to the market i drove over the scale on that same rear axle of then 1800kg pretty well exactly. Still slightly over rated for that rear axle. Once i got them to the market and weighed they ended up being 3200kg all together (7000lbs). So thats a total load weight of 12,0000lbs. Way over loaded for my 'tow rating' i know.

 

But how the hell does that work? A bumper pull loaded to 7000lbs and a gooseneck loaded up to 12,000lbs and the gooseneck was 100kg lighter on the rear axle of the truck.

 

I did write down the difference in the weights on the front end of the truck, i just cant remember them off the top of my head. I'm sure there was more weight on the steer tires with the gooseneck though.