5th wheel with 1/2 ton

KMGZ400 · June 8, 2015

so let me get this straight you would rather beat on a truck, risk the lives of others on the road for the simple fact that you "think" that tow ratings are a suggestion? Being a tow truck driver I wish whoever is in your truck and the other cars around you well WHEN you end up crashing. Until you see a family killed be someone like you who thinks numbers are just suggestions you'll clearly never change your thinking. And to top it off you set your cruise control while towing the monstrosity. Grow a pair and buy a big boy truck if you want big boy toys.

Agreed... That much weight on a 1500 is just plain and simple not smart.. Doesn't that 1500 have drum brakes in the rear too? I've towed about 10k with my duramax and there's no way on gods green earth I would try and tow near 10k with a 1500.

hegsz71 · June 8, 2015

In the early 90s when I stated pulling my equipment HP and TQ ratings were less than 1/2 tons today. The tow ratings on 3/4 and one tons were about were 1/2 tons are now. The only that's really change that much are HP and TQ ratings across the board and tow ratings. The tire patch and brakes surface, spring rates are the same . Trailer brakes and load placement determines load safety. A goose neck on a 1/2 ton wood be better than a bumper hook up and just find for a camper.

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Frames, spring rates, bigger brakes. All things that have also changed. Yes halftons are much better then what they were however they are still not 3/4 or 1 ton trucks. Over load a half ton and get in an accident I promise you you will be sued. If some moron in a half ton that's severely overloaded is the cause an accident I'm apart of I will end up owning everything he has. The saying Ignorance of the law is no excuse also applies to the weight ratings of your vehicle. A semi can haul much more than 80k ever wonder why they don't? (Excluding special permits)

KARNUT · June 8, 2015

Yes, the road surface can't handle it, most max out at 50K. You can legally register a one ton and trailer to haul over 33K go thru the scales. The trailer handles the load.

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Jon A · June 8, 2015

I've towed about 10k with my duramax and there's no way on gods green earth I would try and tow near 10k with a 1500.

Maybe you should actually try it with a modern 1/2 ton so you would have an informed opinion.

Over load a half ton and get in an accident I promise you you will be sued.

Buy a powerball ticket and I promise you will win 100 million dollars.... I wonder which happens more often (in the real world, not the internet)?

hegsz71 · June 8, 2015

Buy a powerball ticket and I promise you will win 100 million dollars.... I wonder which happens more often (in the real world, not the internet)?

Seriously? It happens every day in this country. I've towed several trucks that lost control due to being over weight and I've been towing for 2 years. By all means test your luck. Just know you will be found at fault when the state patrol shows up.

Jon A · June 9, 2015

Seriously? It happens every day in this country.

Then you should have plenty of examples to post. Please proceed.

I've towed several trucks that lost control due to being over weight and I've been towing for 2 years.

So you're a tow truck driver? You conduct your own accident investigations, gather supporting evidence and reach a legal conclusion on the spot? You much charge a lot for a tow!

hegsz71 · June 9, 2015

Then you should have plenty of examples to post. Please proceed.

So you're a tow truck driver? You conduct your own accident investigations, gather supporting evidence and reach a legal conclusion on the spot? You much charge a lot for a tow!

Halfton pulling a bobcat, halftons pulling hay bales on a 5th wheel, plenty of examples of it happens more than once it's enough. This is something that is completely avoidable.

Clearly you have zero idea how towing works. So I will try to explain. I'll type slow so you can understand. I get called by dispatch (the police department) I head out and tow said vehicles back to the shop. Sometimes state patrol completes inspections at the scene other times it is done at the shop. Having a working relationship with said state patrol, insurance company's, and the individuals that were involved I am told causes and who was at fault. Why would I need to know that? Well I won't bill the person you hit I bill you for there tow and yours. See how that works? Like I said before by all means go ahead and over load your truck and act like a tough guy it will only take 1 time for you to lose your crap and kill someone until you realize how stupid it is. What's the price difference between a half ton and a 3/4 ton? 1-2k? Is it really worth it?

Jon A · June 9, 2015

So you think if the cops initally find the driver at fault at the scene of a crash (which they almost always do for one reason or another unless somebody else clearly rear-ended or T-boned him) and you bill his insurance company that somehow means they were also sued for damages by a 3rd party and lost in court?

You have two very different things confused. Your first post was saying the latter happened "every day." Big lawsuits make the news. If you have seen it happen and it happens "every day" in this country, you should be able to find the related news reports and post links to them. If it did happen every day you would be able to find hundreds, if not thousands of examples.

Again, I predict you can't find a single one.

I'm sorry, but mis-information doesn't do anybody any good. Telling people they need to buy a 3/4 ton or 1 ton in order to safely tow trailers specifically built for 1/2 tons and within their ratings OR YOU'LL BE SUUUUEEEEEDDDD!!!!!! is flat out misinformation. Getting a ticket is something different. I got a ticket a few years back...I was going 62 in a 55 zone (IIRC). Nobody sued me.

KMGZ400 · June 9, 2015

Maybe you should actually try it with a modern 1/2 ton so you would have an informed opinion.

Does it still make my opinion informed that I owned a 2013 ext cab just like "conky conky" and Towed about 8k with that?

Jon A · June 9, 2015

Actually, yes, that is more pertinent experience than the first thing you mentioned. Not quite good enough, though. You said any 1500. I'm guessing your 2013 didn't have anywhere near the ~12,000 lb tow rating the newest NHT 1/2 tons have. I'm telling you, if you tow 8K (even bumper pull--much less an 8K 5th wheel!) with one of these and somehow feel unsafe, it's not the truck's fault. That would only indicate a problem with the nut behind the wheel.

Jon A · June 9, 2015

I agree on the 5th wheel bit. Even when towing my TT with my 2500hd diesel I can still feel the truck trying to move. Just so much more mass that I don't have to worry about it. In regards to FALR....I wonder how much TV mass reduction is playing into the desire to maintain more mass over the rear axle. That's going to ride like crap stock. I shoot for 50-100%...next week I'll be weighing the new rig to see how close I am.

Yes, I agree. It'll be interesting to see how things play out the next couple of years. Ford brags up how the new F150 can "tow more because it weighs less." I'm wondering how happy the owners who tow close to max are going to be after they actually read the owners manual and set things up the way Ford says they MUST! Because you're right--at 25% it's going to ride like crap and not feel safe with the stock suspension. At only 25% I don't know why one would even bother with a WDH...it's hardly doing anthing. I guess if it also good anti-sway built in it might help keep you porpoising straight down the road....

But that is a very new recommendation--I'm sure they did it for a reason. I can only guess they found with the heavier trailers and lighter trucks the trailers were tossing around the trucks more easily and they found at 50%-100% allowed them to jacknife too easily for their comfort level. I'm guessing the Ford Engineers would fully endorse my recommendations of fixing the handling with a set of airbags and leaving more weight on the rear tires.

Of course using a 5th wheel instead simply eliminates most of those handling issues. Quite a few F150 owners do tow 5th wheels (not quite as verboten as it seems to be in GM circles); maybe they'll become even more popular when owners hash out the new recommendations.

calgator73 · June 9, 2015

Of course using a 5th wheel instead simply eliminates most of those handling issues. Quite a few F150 owners do tow 5th wheels (not quite as verboten as it seems to be in GM circles); maybe they'll become even more popular when owners hash out the new recommendations.

The only real issue is that you'll still easily exceed GVWR with anything short of a 3500 with most of the pin weights out there. I know it's just a number... If my math is right I'm very close to maxing out my 3/4 with the same trailer I pulled with my 1/2.

Conky Conky · June 9, 2015

I don't pull it every day once a year I use it only for work. Iv pulled with 1ton trucks from the 80s and 90s early 90s and them trucks can't handle nothing my truck has a fully boxed and 10pl tires. Them old 1tons are under powered and in my opinion have weeker frames all they do is severely flex and creek. I bet if a test of some sort was done a frame from a modern 1500 like mine is probably stronger then them older 1tons. And I don't live in the States I'm Canadian DOT don't give a shit about private vehicles.

nards444 · June 9, 2015

Maybe you should actually try it with a modern 1/2 ton so you would have an informed opinion.

Buy a powerball ticket and I promise you will win 100 million dollars.... I wonder which happens more often (in the real world, not the internet)?

I agree I have towed 10,500lbs with an F150 and my 5.3 NHT they both did it, the ford was better at it, as far as power, but handling was the same between the two. I did make a 600 mile journey in that 10,500lb boat, truck was good, but not great for that. If rated for it these trucks can handle the weight, they are not like 1/2 tons from 90s. But with that said, if your hauling that type of weight a lot and on long trips, Id want something bigger. I used to hauld with an 08 F250 diesel, it was night and day better, but the cost and maint didnt justify it for the 30 min trips I make with the boat.

Like I said earlier the problem with this trailer he has picked out is, hes busting payload guarenteed, trailer manufactures are notorius for low balling, and that trailer will probably 2k lbs of crap in it by the time its said and done. One thing people forget about too, is shape, shape of what your hauling makes a big difference

If I were him, if I camp less than an hour away and do it a handful of times a year, Id go for it. But anything more than that, i might relook the trailer or the pull vehicle.

I dont like to get into this getting tickets or liability thing, or you need a diesel to haul a pop up. But DOT does pull people over for being over weight. And you do pose a liability issue or having your insurance not cover. Its possible, not going to say its going to happen, but its possible.

calgator73 · June 9, 2015

Yes, I agree. It'll be interesting to see how things play out the next couple of years. Ford brags up how the new F150 can "tow more because it weighs less." I'm wondering how happy the owners who tow close to max are going to be after they actually read the owners manual and set things up the way Ford says they MUST! Because you're right--at 25% it's going to ride like crap and not feel safe with the stock suspension. At only 25% I don't know why one would even bother with a WDH...it's hardly doing anthing. I guess if it also good anti-sway built in it might help keep you porpoising straight down the road....

But that is a very new recommendation--I'm sure they did it for a reason. I can only guess they found with the heavier trailers and lighter trucks the trailers were tossing around the trucks more easily and they found at 50%-100% allowed them to jacknife too easily for their comfort level. I'm guessing the Ford Engineers would fully endorse my recommendations of fixing the handling with a set of airbags and leaving more weight on the rear tires.

Of course using a 5th wheel instead simply eliminates most of those handling issues. Quite a few F150 owners do tow 5th wheels (not quite as verboten as it seems to be in GM circles); maybe they'll become even more popular when owners hash out the new recommendations.

Interesting bit I found on another site edited for clarity:

"The Final Report No. DOT HS 804 248, EFFECTS OF WEIGHT DISTRIBUTING HITCH TORQUE ON CAR-TRAILER DIRECTIONAL CONTROL AND BRAKING, is available free of charge from National Technical Reports Library. Found under "NTIS DATABASE". You do need to register as a User to access the free PDF download. The report comprises 127 pages.

QUOTE

This report presents the results of a full scale test program, with supporting computer simulation analysis, aimed at determining the effects of weight-distributing hitch forces (or torque) on combination vehicles (C-V) handling and braking. Two C-V configurations were used; a full sized station wagon plus 31 ft travel trailer, and a compact sized sedan plus 18 ft utility trailer. Test procedures included a step steer (for tow vehicle understeer changes and transient response), a pulse steer (for trailer swing mode damping), straight line braking (for stopping distance), and braking in a turn (for transient understeer changes). Over 800 test runs were performed in which load leveling torque, hitch load, and tire pressure were the primary independent variables. Results showed that increasing hitch load and/or load leveling torque degrade the tow vehicle understeer and reduce the speed for incipient jackknifing. On the other hand, trailer damping is somewhat improved with load leveling. Front/rear tire pressure differentials (front lower than rear) have a significant beneficial influence when the hitch load is high.

Several devices and procedures were investigated in order to provide the user with a technique for determining the load leveling torque applied by a weight-distributing hitch. All methods provided usable results, the simplest being measurement of differential bumper height. In this respect it was found that hook-ups resulting in a small hitch-low attitude (corresponding to 0 percent hitch load transfer to the front axle in conventionally sprung tow cars) is more desirable than a level attitude which provides approximately 25 percent hitch load transfer. This level was arrived at by first minimizing the hitch load consistent with maintaining acceptable trailer swing mode damping. Load leveling is then applied, as necessary, to bring rear tire loads back within rated limits. Further leveling should be accomplished with air shocks."

It supports your argument about using airbags to level up. The big issue is multiple weighs to ensure every aspect is being considered. 5th wheel is certainly simpler. I'm going to have to download the report and see how I can apply their lessons learned.