Synthetic oil

diyer2 · October 25, 2017

Oh my Dorothy. More oil debates.

Z45 · October 25, 2017

Synthetic oil is a generic term and does not imply better quality. And not all synthetics are created equal, there is a wide variation in quality. Each synthetic brand uses a mix of high-performance fluids and additives. Many are made for performance but many are made to a sell a set price point, ergo good enough.

Loco-diablo · October 25, 2017

I'm thinking any good quality oil should suffice if changed regularly (6k intervals). My dealer provides free oil changes, tire rotations, and batteries for life of the vehicle, provided I do all scheduled maintenance there. I plan on taking advantage of it.

KARNUT · October 25, 2017

I’d like to see a thread on oil related failures during regular oil change internals. And warranty turn downs on gas engines due to hand held tunes.

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Grumpy Bear · October 25, 2017

There seems to be some idea that in the oil refining process there is this ability to pop off a few thousand gallons of whatever custom brew the refiner has orders for like a short order cook. Or perhaps that the refiner has dozens of caldrons on site that specialize in one ingredient in a witches brew recipe.

These are not batch operational plants. These are 24/7/365 plants that run for years and years. Continuously operating plants that measure off stream time in tens of thousands of dollars an hour. They run on very specific QC targets that are set in stone whose window of operation is only wide enough to accommodate corrections of the natural variations in process capability and feed stocks. Like driving a truck on a greasy narrow one lane.

Not all refineries even have Group I and/or II lube oil processing and blending capability. Those that don’t, for the most part, crack those stocks into fuels and asphalt until there is nothing left but clinkers.

As far as Group III stocks. They are few and confided to larger refineries that make a singular and a very specific end product range that is process capable limited. Even among refiners the end product goals are targeted at the same end chemistry type. Close the end group, remove the hydroxyl and rid the Benzene rings, tight up the cut. It’s pretty good stuff.

Group IV stocks. There are only a couple of places that make these POA products worldwide and everyone shops at the same Walmart for their blending materials.

It cost billions of dollars to bring an entirely new technology on line. This has limited the advancements in cracking to small operational tweaks at the behest of progress mainly in catalyst chemistry or driven by Federal Regulations. Think band of TEL. Honestly some of those have been huge. But each one also mothballs some other plants equipment that is no longer cost effective to bring to spec. The last major boom in refinery construction happened in the 50’s. It’s why there are so few plants capable of making things like POA.

Group V isn’t crude chemistry at all and can be batch produced in chemical plants not refineries. Part of its cost is tied to this and part of the cost of raw materials. It is also sometimes a blend stock in crude based lubricants. Sometimes in additive packages. It’s even used, without crude assistance. Blending the two took a few decades to figure out. A real black eye to the ester groups.

The real advancements have come in…wait for it…MARKETING and in a few special cases, the conspicuous lack of it. Don’t ask, don’t tell mentality.

If you’re going to buy crude oil based lubricant, buy from a label that has actual refining capability. Change it regularly. Control the heat. Use a decent filter. This is super important if you resources limit you to the Group I and II stock choices.

Quaker State is a Shell label not a third party. Convenience store brands and box store labels are examples of a third party blender or repackages. Learn to tell the difference. Many of these third party types have their head held underwater by the Seven Sisters. To make money they do ‘whatever it takes’. Like hedge on the add packaging and play the SAE definitions game like a violin. There are even down right thieves and liars that come and go under minor labels. Like the Indiana areas ‘wash oil’ in a bottle scandal.

sdeeter19555 · October 25, 2017

I’d like to see a thread on oil related failures during regular oil change internals. And warranty turn downs on gas engines due to hand held tunes.

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Warranty denial from a tuner is a real thing, at least for the diesel crowd. I personally know guys that got warranty denied because the tuner left "footprints" in the ECM (typically they look for the number of key cycles among other things). Back in the diesel heyday, the technicians were pretty good at finding evidence of tuners, and unfortunately several honest guys got accused of running tuners and had warranty denied when they never had that bug. The real kicker is buying a used diesel that someone had a tuner on, then they pulled before the sale...then the new owner gets accused of hotrodding when they have no idea what was done prior to their owning that truck.

I can't imagine it would be any different for a gasser, if they really wanted to look. But hey, once you touch it; you become your own warranty station...got to pay to play.

The oil-related failure...honestly, I've never seen one. Any of the engine failures I've seen were because of a faulty part, that was going to fail regardless of the oil. Now I have seen oil-related engine failures from oil starvation, but that was related to a faulty production of Fram oil filters way back when, and was not a result of the oil failing.

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KARNUT · October 25, 2017

Warranty denial from a tuner is a real thing, at least for the diesel crowd. I personally know guys that got warranty denied because the tuner left "footprints" in the ECM (typically they look for the number of key cycles among other things). Back in the diesel heyday, the technicians were pretty good at finding evidence of tuners, and unfortunately several honest guys got accused of running tuners and had warranty denied when they never had that bug. The real kicker is buying a used diesel that someone had a tuner on, then they pulled before the sale...then the new owner gets accused of hotrodding when they have no idea what was done prior to their owning that truck.

I can't imagine it would be any different for a gasser, if they really wanted to look. But hey, once you touch it; you become your own warranty station...got to pay to play.

The oil-related failure...honestly, I've never seen one. Any of the engine failures I've seen were because of a faulty part, that was going to fail regardless of the oil. Now I have seen oil-related engine failures from oil starvation, but that was related to a faulty production of Fram oil filters way back when, and was not a result of the oil failing.

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I was referring to gas, I visit several sites never seen a gas refusal yet.

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sdeeter19555 · October 25, 2017

I was referring to gas, I visit several sites never seen a gas refusal yet.

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I think that's because in the realm of things, a gasser is being tweaked to get a few more ponies out, they are already tuned to be pretty efficient.

A diesel on the other hand is typically detuned from the factory to allow the drivetrain to survive...then you get a mild programmer that removes torque management (the manufacturer's built in safety net) and adds between 100hp and 230hp (thinking a Smarty Jr and Sr), and you can easily overtake the drivetrain limitations. I added a 70hp tune to my Cummins and it burnt the clutch up that day because that was the next weak link...it couldn't hold 5th or 6th on a hard run. And to pile on that, the diesel engine components aren't cheap...think of a typical fuel system, your easily into the $5k range for major components. A set of injectors, easily damaged by a tuner adding rail pressure, set me back $3k (mine failed from water injestion)...they dealer doesn't want to eat that cost any more than the manufacturer.

My point is, the tuned gassers aren't as likely to frag the drivetrain as a tuned diesel. I would find it unlikely, as long as it wasn't out in plain sight, that a dealer would even waste time looking at a gasser to deny warranty for a tuner. I think the dealer has specific things that raise red flags...a gasser with some minor issue isn't one of them.

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KARNUT · October 25, 2017

I think that's because in the realm of things, a gasser is being tweaked to get a few more ponies out, they are already tuned to be pretty efficient.

A diesel on the other hand is typically detuned from the factory to allow the drivetrain to survive...then you get a mild programmer that removes torque management (the manufacturer's built in safety net) and adds between 100hp and 230hp (thinking a Smarty Jr and Sr), and you can easily overtake the drivetrain limitations. I added a 70hp tune to my Cummins and it burnt the clutch up that day because that was the next weak link...it couldn't hold 5th or 6th on a hard run. And to pile on that, the diesel engine components aren't cheap...think of a typical fuel system, your easily into the $5k range for major components. A set of injectors, easily damaged by a tuner adding rail pressure, set me back $3k (mine failed from water injestion)...they dealer doesn't want to eat that cost any more than the manufacturer.

My point is, the tuned gassers aren't as likely to frag the drivetrain as a tuned diesel. I would find it unlikely, as long as it wasn't out in plain sight, that a dealer would even waste time looking at a gasser to deny warranty for a tuner. I think the dealer has specific things that raise red flags...a gasser with some minor issue isn't one of them.

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Add to that on some trucks with the E-85 option you get more HP just by using E-85. You could make an argument on the transmission side by removing too much TM. I stayed at 50 per cent. Back in our diesel days 90- early 2000s we tuned all our diesels. One 4WD ran in the 10s and was a daily driver never a problem. When emissions got crazy we stopped, diesels became unreliable and too costly to mess with.

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Cowpie · October 30, 2017

But GB, many of those house brand labels are actually blended and packaged by outfits like Warren Oil, which is a highly respected blender. And Warren gets the same base stock from the refineries and the same add packs from Infineum and Lubrizol as the big name refiner labels do. There is some tweaking of the specs a little here and there like maybe hiking the level of moly or some other component, but the add packs must meet the standard on the bottle. Very little room for playing fast and loose with add packs as opposed to what you are suggesting.

I have also long since gotten over the marketing fluff regarding motor oils. GM states that I should be using Mobil 1 5w30 in my 2006 Cadillac CTS 3.6. All it has gotten since I bought it is good 'ol Yellow Bottle Pennzoil conventional 10w30. Primarily because of what I saw regarding testing on the product by the Petroleum Quality Institute of America. Pennz 10w30 actually puts many synthetics to shame in several areas, even a incredibly low NOACK number. So low that PQIA retested the oil to confirm it. Also has a heavy load of moly and boron also that puts many other high ticket oils to shame. And the car? Well, it has experienced no engine problems since I got it. That 3.6 is noted for timing chain issues. Not a peep that anything is wrong. Will keep this 12 year old car for some time longer. One of the best cars I have ever bought. About the only negative about the engine is the PCV port. Very poor design that allows way too much oil to get in the PCV line. So I use a Elite catch can on the line to get the oil out of there instead of it going to the intake.

Anymore the key is to just get a reputable oil at the lowest price point one can get it. Sales are a wonderful time to stock up.

Cheverado · October 30, 2017

On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 11:48 AM, MaverickZ71 said:

Years ago, the AC Delco "Ultraguard/Gold" oil filters (made for synthetic oil and/or extended drain periods) were made by the same company that made the Mobil1 filters. Don't know about now. Can't even buy the AC Delco "Ultraguard/Gold" filters around here anymore. Wonder if that means they are no longer manufactured, and people are just buying new old stock online.

Also, the K&N white "HP" oil filters with the nut welded on top used to be made by the same company that made the Mobil1 oil filters. They still look the same, inside and out.

I use the NAPA Platinum filter. Guy at NAPA told me it's designed for synthetic oil for every other OLM filter interval. So far -so good.

Grumpy Bear · October 30, 2017

9 hours ago, Cowpie said:

But GB, many of those house brand labels are actually blended and packaged by outfits like Warren Oil,...............................

Anymore the key is to just get a reputable oil at the lowest price point one can get it. Sales are a wonderful time to stock up.

Your absolutely right Cliff. Problem is reliably finding out who's who in the zoo. Castrol buys from Mobil/Exxon. Quaker State is Shell. Warren is a good outfit. Chevron supplies 7-Eleven. Valvoline, who could take issue there. Like I said, marketing is a lie told that is mostly true. Ferreting out the garbage is made hard with bad intentions. Case in point; synthetic blends.

I take no issue with your last statement at all.

Personally I use Quaker State Ultimate Durability from Walmart in four of the fleet including my baby, the 2009 Lacrosse. In the Silverado and the air cooled bikes however I use a polyol ester from Red Line. Purolator filters across the board. I am anal about oil temperatures and use coolers when needed. That means I measure then decide. I change at 5K miles. It's just a number easy for me to remember and a marker that has served me well over 45 years of driving.

I did a test on a new 98 Honda HX to validate the claims of polyol ester for myself. After dumping the factory fill at 500 miles she went on a diet of 5W30 Red Line and a Bosh Premium filter changed on the OLM. (7500 miles) At 50 K I pulled the rocker box to install an adjustable cam sprocket. There was zero residue or color. Pulled the box again at 97 K for an EGR service. Then once more at 200 K for a belt and clutch change. At this point we measured upper end parts and did a leak down and compression check. Looked inside cylinders and the crankcase. This motor at 200 K looked and measured like it had never been run. Like new castings with fresh oil poured over them. Under 5% leak down.

Now the wife's Toyota Peso was another matter. Treated to Pennzoil's first synthetic blend and Bosh filters every 5K that motor looked knackered in under 50 K inside. By 90 K it was using a quart in 300 miles or add a quart at each fill up. It did however make it 345K and why, I have no idea. I've seen this at the Buss garage in Ford 391 Bluebirds feed Pennzoil conventional. Squeaky school system trying to wring every penny form a dollar pushing the limits of sanity. At 60K you could scoop gumbo out of the lifter valley with a coffee cup and removing the rocker covers...it was solid to the tops of the retainers.

It's not just oil. It's filter. It's temperature. It's idle time. It's short hauling in cold weather. It's poor service and greed. It's about good service and finding the balance.

15 Z71 · October 30, 2017

I'd be willing to bet that using the oil and filter from the dealer,the engine would prob last as long as any other oil and filter used.

sdeeter19555 · October 30, 2017

I'd be willing to bet that using the oil and filter from the dealer,the engine would prob last as long as any other oil and filter used.

Yep, but it's also about what gives someone that warm and fuzzy...

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Colossus · October 30, 2017

5 hours ago, Cheverado said:

I use the NAPA Platinum filter. Guy at NAPA told me it's designed for synthetic oil for every other OLM filter interval. So far -so good.

that is indeed the correct filter to use for full synthetic and going off of the OLM. Good job.