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Wbrisett

2020 2500 HD High Country Issues and GM's lack of caring

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So I'm new around this forum. I came here after looking at some of the issues folks have seen with recent builds. 

 

My epic saga started on 19 Oct when I bought a 'new' 2500HD High Country to replace my 2015 2500HD LTZ. New is in quotes because the dealership's general manager used it as his daily driver for a few weeks and it had ~3000 miles on it. We buy it, all seems well until my wife is driving it and the instrument cluster lights up like a Christmas tree and we get every warning light in the book come on (ESC, Check Engine, etc.)... So we take it into the dealer (which have been outstanding!), their head tech follows the GM procedures and they first they replace the brake control module. It's on back order with no ETA... great. I have a work trip to the UK, so it's not too bad since I don't need a vehicle during that timeframe. So 18 days later we get the truck back with the new brake control module. We're getting ready for our annual family Thanksgiving campout which is ~500 miles from home. So, we pickup the vehicle and use it to run our shopping errands for the trip. While out of errands, same thing happened!!! UGGHHH... So we take it back and the service manager is quite understanding about it now impacting our vacation, they pull a 1500 Silverado out and give it to me as a loaner. I did explain that I would be putting 1,000 miles on it just on this one trip, but they were fine with that. My Airstream loaded is ~8500 lbs, so within the towing capability of the ½ ton. But the LT wasn't as nice for an 8 hour trip. So on our trip back, I get a call from the Dealership and GM's TAC tells them to replace the ECM. So, 10 days later, I have my truck back. I take it the next day to work and as I'm pulling into the parking area, the same issue appears! Now it appears they tracked it down to a wheel sensor (on back order)... 18 days later on the 21st of December I get my truck back. Now we had planned to take a family Christmas trip to the Grand Canyon, but by this point we can't figure out if we can trust this truck that far. So, we opt for a more local camping trip and cancel our reservations to the Grand Canyon. The trip to the state park seems fine, but I notice connecting the Airstream up as we get ready to leave, that I'm getting 'Connection Problem: Electric Brakes'... All other lights work on the trailer and I've got no way to fully test the trailer at this point, so we head on home 175 miles away. I spend two days fully checking the trailer brakes and connection and can't find any issues. I take my truck and connect the trailer next to mine up at the storage facility and get the same warning. So back to the dealer it goes ... and now here we sit 14 weeks into ownership with it spending 11 of those at the dealer. Diagnosis: wheel sensor is broken and they need to replace it and the wheel hub. ETA: Unknown. 

 

Now during this time, my dealer has been awesome. They have called me, let me know what's going on when they find out, made sure I had a loaner I could use (although, there's no taking it out-of-state which hampers camping trips a bit). I wrote a letter to GM stating how much I truly appreciated how well the folks at this particular Autonation have been treating me during this ordeal. I get a nice call from somebody at GM thanking me for letting them know and to let me know they are sharing it with the district manager, etc. (I already shared it with the dealership and more importantly the folks working on my vehicle).  She said 'let me know if I can ever be of assistance' and gave me her extension. As we just continued to see problem after problem, I thought maybe it was time to just get rid of this truck. A call to a local attorney who specializes in the Lemon Law here in Texas informed me after looking over all the work orders and then finding out they had given me a loaner that according to Texas law (yes, we suck at protecting consumers here), my truck has never been 'out of service' as far as the law is concerned and while I could still pursue it in court, chances of it being called a 'lemon' were slim to none. I placed a call to GM they opened a case to try to see where the parts were. At this point, I'm not sure I can deal with this any more. My wife and and I spend two days testing other ¾ ton trucks figuring out how much of a 'bath' we're going to take on the vehicle. I get everybody's numbers and we go back to the dealership and talk with them about a trade too. They are not happy that this has happened either and give us some numbers that mean we would just be out a few thousand $$$. It's not a bad deal, but we're still not sold on it. I feel that GM really should be stepping up a bit. So I call and talk to the woman who gave me her direct line. She tells me they may be able to do something, looks at my case and tells me who is handling it. At this point when she calls me I ask her about GM tossing in some extra incentives to help defray the cost on the trade-in loss. To which she tells me that's not what they do and because my vehicle is too new there's no program to help out. Instead she only offers to help find out why they can't get the parts. 

 

My wife and I are still on the fence about a different truck, a guy I know works for the local RAM dealership and they work hard at getting me numbers very close to the one's the Chevy dealer has gotten me. Ford and the GMC dealer basically wouldn't deal a lot on the numbers (and at this point I'm not sure I would touch another GM product anyhow). But I talk to my brother-in-law who is a gear head and to a coworker who spent 10 years working as a service advisor at a GM dealership. Both advise me that nobody is without problems (and my posting on the Airstream forum about this bares this out). Both recommend I simply give the dealership one more chance to fix it. ... Fine.

 

The GM rep calls me back yesterday and says she has escalated it and is trying to get answers as to where the parts are, but has all the information. Now, early I had asked my dealership if there was any way they could overnight the parts once found. They said that's not normally how they are shipped (yes, I know, it took 10 days to get from Lancing Michigan to Austin Texas the last time!). But I mention that I would ask the GM rep when they called me back. So, I do that. The answer is so annoying... "I have no way of doing that." What? Has GM lost it's mind? How can they tell somebody who spends $70,000 on a product that after nearly 80% of ownership time not working that they can't toss in a few extra dollars and overnight a part to a customer? I get that's not normal, but GM has lost touch with customers. I don't think they fully understand that it's simple stuff like this that either keeps or looses customers. I can't figure out if I am not getting to the right people or what, but my case should be a huge red flag to GM. You don't treat customers like this. My wife and I agree that this is absolutely the last GM product we're buying. The whole experience (outside our awesome dealership) has been nothing but disappointing from the corporate level. I have no idea if GM ever reads these forums, but if they do, somebody there needs a good kick in the ass over this. RAM is looking better and better every day at this point. 

 

Anybody here have any ideas as to what I'm doing wrong here in trying to get through to corporate? or are they just so tone-deaf now that we no longer matter?  

 

 

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By the way, I just realized I posted this to the wrong area, since this is a ¾ ton. If a mod can move this I would appreciate it. Sorry! 

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Welcome to the club... GM does not care. All lip service until the .. can’t replicate or operating as designed BS. 

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I am having the trail brake issue also.  Going to the local dealer tomorrow to arrange service.  I have a 2500 AT4.

Edited by TripDad
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Two things...

1 - When you buy a dealer demo/manager's vehicle, you have to consider it a used truck, no matter how "lightly" it was used when you bought it.  There's probably a reason he only had it a couple of weeks.

2 - Electrical problems, especially in today's vehicles, are the most difficult to diagnose.  The constant dashboard light show and the various electrical issues that the dealership attempted to fix as the cause sounds as if (a) this truck saw some (deep) water while in the general manager's hands, or (b) there's one heck of a short somewhere in the truck's network that is frying modules on the regular.

 

I would definitely trade this thing and end the headache.  If the dealership is being reasonable with the valuation and price of a new ride, go with it.  If you keep it, it'll just be in the shop again, and as you're not the original owner, your state may or may not allow you to file a Lemon Law case.

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This is a little discouraging to read. Your story sounds exactly like my experience with Ford, the only difference is that the dealerships are also useless and couldn't care less. So far my GMC has been problem free but I only have 2k miles on it.

 

Hopefully they find a resolution to the problem soon. I am also amazed at the number of problems and lack of concern regardless of the price of the vehicles but  especially when they are charging 50-80 thousand dollars for a truck. 

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Look into the Lemon Law for your state.  It often kicks in after 3 unsuccessful attempts at the manufacture fixing an issue.  Usually results in the manufacturer buying the vehicle back at your full price. 

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50 minutes ago, shimmy said:

Look into the Lemon Law for your state.  It often kicks in after 3 unsuccessful attempts at the manufacture fixing an issue.  Usually results in the manufacturer buying the vehicle back at your full price. 

He did, mentions it in his post.  TX law is apparently not overly consumer friendly with the lemon law.

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Hey Wayne, sorry to hear you are having so many problems.

 

I'm not sure if there are any GM/Chev techs on this forum -- they might be on the Troubleshooting section of this 2020 HD forum and you might want to post this in that section as well.

 

I was a tech for 25 years, 7 of them at Chev dealerships.

The worst problem for owners and techs are intermittent problems which result in anything from never being found to being found within a minute to anything in between.

Intermittents affect vehicles with values from $20k to over a million $ and are usually worse the more complex the systems are (like on more expensive vehicles and vehicles with more options).

 

From what I can tell, the cluster problem has occurred 3 times in 2 months so the chances of it occurring when the tech is looking at is very, very, very small.

Once, I drove a customer's vehicle for a week to try to duplicate the problem & it never occurred.

We eventually took it to another dealer and the new sets of eyes, ears and noses finally they luckily found the problem.

So a second opinion might be helpful.

For owners, intermittents are very frustrating in so many ways as you can definitely attest to.

For the techs, who are usually on flat rate, very frustrating because of the following:

  • The problem is very rarely present when they are working on the vehicle so they are looking for a needle in a haystack
  • The quality of the intermittent diagnostics from the manufacturer is OK at best, but resolution of the problem relies heavily on the tech's experience and extreme diligence in troubleshooting and luck to actually have the problem to occur when the tech is looking at it AND for that problem to stay long enough for the tech to diagnose it.
  • The tech must get approved every half hour to continue diagnosing the problem
  • Any time that is not approved pays $O to the tech on flat rate who needs to pay his mortgage, bills, etc.
  • The tech often also has the stress of everyone (himself, the service mgr, the shop foreman, the customer, etc.) being pissed off at him because the problem is not solved yet
  • If the tech suspects a computer/controller is the problem, replaces it and the problem occurs again, the tech may have his time clawed back (not paid for the time he/she put into it) and may also have to pay for the component himself/herself

A vast majority of the intermittent electrical problems are caused by poor connections -- anything from the battery connections, grounds (battery, frame, engine, body, dash mounting, etc.), connectors in line and at components, power supply connections (fuses, circuit breakers, connection studs, etc.), connections inside components etc.

 

The problem is affecting the instrument panel cluster so that is the first place I would look and these may have already been checked.

Some things that should be checked are

  • the cluster connector(s), whether it is securely plugged in and if it has tension on it from the harness.
  • All the terminals in the cluster connector(s) (probably well over a dozen) need to be pull tested, wiggled, drag test on all terminals (both male and female) with the connector disconnected.
  • The cluster needs to be inspected for damage, cracks on the circuit board, etc.
  • The cluster computer/controller ( IPC module, BCM or ECM, etc.) may be damaged internally from something as minute as a static spark, even way too small to detect when it occurs. Problems caused by this may show up at any time ( immediately, a day later, a week later, a month later, 6 months later, etc. ), may never be possible to find and can only be fixed by replacing the damaged computer/controller.

Even wiggling a harness, inadvertently or on purpose, may cause a momentary intermittent connection (even up to 3 feet away) to reconnect or disconnect or both, further compounding the problem and sending the diagnostic process down the garden path.

 

"Shorts" are a kind of a "catch-all" and misunderstood word that is used for many electrical problems and that is understandable, but it is not the most common cause.

I can go on and on about different kinds of shorts, but any kind of short is not common at all especially in new vehicles.

 

With all this being said, you still may have the problem.

It sounds like you are doing all you can and believe me, I believe your understanding and patience means so much to the tech and other staff at the dealership.

It also sounds like the staff at the dealer are doing all they can within the constraints imposed on them by GM.

What is really compounding and aggravating the problem is GM's protocol in resolving problems.

It also sounds like the front line GM staff are doing their due diligence and the problem is higher up.

Sometimes, the farther you go up in an organization, the less diligent people are and they are not held as accountable as everyone below them. This may not be the case but I have seen it so many times in the management side of companies and it is unforgivable knowing how well they are paid/overpaid.

Their "cheaping-out" is not helping as is evident when it takes so long to get a part.

They can get anything from anyplace in the world within 2 days.

 

For every vehicle like yours, there are thousands of others that are identical that never have a problem.

 

Once these problems get solved, you might never have another problem with your vehicle.

I hope that is the case and I hope this helps.

 

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20 hours ago, KCJackson1 said:

If you keep it, it'll just be in the shop again, and as you're not the original owner, your state may or may not allow you to file a Lemon Law case.

Actually I am the 'original' owner. It was never titled. Think of this as one of those 'loaners' that you get from service. They don't title the vehicles and when you buy them they have up to a certain amount of miles before they have to be titled (bought a GMC Sierra that way and saved thousands because GM kicked in extra cash for that deal because it was a loaner/demo). 

 

The Texas lemon laws have to be some of the weakest in the country. I gave all my paperwork to the local attorney and he got back to me saying that I basically don't qualify because as far as Texas is concerned my truck hasn't been out of service (the dealership has been providing me a loaner). 

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22 hours ago, TripDad said:

I am having the trail brake issue also.  Going to the local dealer tomorrow to arrange service.  I have a 2500 AT4.

On thing that is quite helpful by the way is to test the truck first. Those inexpensive testers with LEDs won't work anymore, the smart electronics in our systems tell the system when there's a load or not. You need a tester like the Electric Brake Force Meter from Innovative Products of America part #9107A. Look it up on Youtube and you'll see how it works. This would have saved me two days in troubleshooting the wiring on my trailer. 

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There are a few issues here:

  1. This sounds like a bad ground.  
  2. If this dealer keeps ordering parts because he doesn't stock them, and he can't get them quickly, plus those parts don't work, try another dealer.  Ask around for a good one.
  3. This looks like the first year of a new model
  4. It was a dealer loaner car.
  5. The dealer loans out half-ton trucks to pull heavy trailers for long distances, yet isn't concerned.
  6. That dealer was AutoNation, which is a large conglomerate that probably doesn't pay it's mechanics to diagnose a technical issue.
  7. Texas provides essentially no relief, and the dealer knows that.
  8. Don't expect help from the vehicle manufacturer.  Very few do.  
  9. Find a good mechanic, even if you have to get an independent repair shop.  If they fix it, you'll have a potential claim, and will have resolved the issue..
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22 hours ago, KCJackson1 said:

.........

1 - When you buy a dealer demo/manager's vehicle, you have to consider it a used truck, no matter how "lightly" it was used when you bought it.  There's probably a reason he only had it a couple of weeks.

 

.......

Ain't that the truth!  No such thing as a new vehicle with 3000 miles, just a used vehicle with a new car price that was never titled. And, possibly well used just like a rental car that gets the crap beat out of it.

 

Still carrying teenage memories of a buddy whose father owned a dealership and a bunch of us would pile in to his current "demo/manager's vehicle on a sunny early Sunday morning and drive to the beach and kick the crap out of it practicing bootlegger turns in the empty parking lot. Other fun uses included charging puddles of standing water to see how far the water would spray, occasionally bottoming it in a disguised pothole underneath. My favorites was stuffing our faces with White Castles and running on the broken road under the el until the first sucker puked out the window, and nights at the drive-in movie keeping the engine idling through a double feature to run the heater in cold weather and the A/C in Summer. You always have to check the engine hours to see if they roughly correspond to mileage.

 

Nowadays I can feel sorry for the poor sucker that bought any of those "lightly used" vehicles and that is why I will never buy a new car with more than 100 miles on the odometer.

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2 hours ago, Wbrisett said:

Actually I am the 'original' owner. It was never titled. Think of this as one of those 'loaners' that you get from service. They don't title the vehicles and when you buy them they have up to a certain amount of miles before they have to be titled (bought a GMC Sierra that way and saved thousands because GM kicked in extra cash for that deal because it was a loaner/demo). 

 

The Texas lemon laws have to be some of the weakest in the country. I gave all my paperwork to the local attorney and he got back to me saying that I basically don't qualify because as far as Texas is concerned my truck hasn't been out of service (the dealership has been providing me a loaner). 

Hmmm... in NJ, dealership employee cars and demos/loaners have to be titled (to the dealership itself) and sold as used.  Only stock vehicles used for test drives are still sold as "new".  3000 miles in a three weeks is a lot of driving - pace of over 50K per year.

 

Sorry to hear TX Lemon won't help.  I would still work out a trade, because after this many repair attempts, they still can't trace the source.  Even giving you a loaner every time doesn't make the truck comfortably reliable when you get it back.

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43 minutes ago, KCJackson1 said:

Hmmm... in NJ, dealership employee cars and demos/loaners have to be titled (to the dealership itself) and sold as used.  Only stock vehicles used for test drives are still sold as "new".  3000 miles in a three weeks is a lot of driving - pace of over 50K per year.

 

Sorry to hear TX Lemon won't help.  I would still work out a trade, because after this many repair attempts, they still can't trace the source.  Even giving you a loaner every time doesn't make the truck comfortably reliable when you get it back.

The general manager lives nearly 75 miles away and he was the person driving it. So he was putting on 150 miles a day at a minimum. 

 

There's really quite a bit wrong about the Texas lemon law in my book. One even if they continue to give you a loaner, you are restricted by state boundaries on the loaner, which means I can't go out of state with it. This really limits things and thus isn't as if my truck hasn't been out of service because it's not a 1:1. The loaner is also a 1500 vs. 2500, fortunately for my towing needs a 1500 works (although it doesn't pass a gas station it doesn't like when towing... I got 8.2 MPG on my trip to Amarillo over Thanksgiving. (With my old 2015 2500 HD, I could get 12-14). 

 

Our thinking process is similar to yours. They really do think they have tracked down the issue and have been working with GM TAC on this, but I'm still very uncomfortable not knowing if they really did find the issue... even finding the issue hasn't helped because they don't have the parts and have no ETA on when they will come in. Hard to believe that since we've bought this vehicle we have only had it on the road three weeks. The rest of the time it has been at the dealership (usually waiting for parts). Which is why all I have been asking GM Corp. for is to overnight the parts once they figure out where they are. Last time it took 10 days to get to the dealership from Lancing. This is why I think GM simply has lost their minds here. In any most other states, I would qualify for the Lemon law, and I'll I'm asking for is a few extra dollars to overnight parts. 

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