Post your UOA, (used oil analysis) here

[OnTheReel]

It’s the same lab nonetheless. If I was inclined to spend $1000/yr on analysis I’d be better off skipping it altogether. Could install a new Mopar long block every 5 years with that money instead. Or maybe a 426 in 10 years. Either seems like a more logical approach.

[OnTheReel]

I do plan to use Nick’s service once a year though. Still getting things worked out in general but think I’m on the right track now.

[Leo Opalewski]

2 hours ago, customboss said:

Same thing with that oil analysis. Thats a generic industrial lab analysis. Not a good ISO Certified automotive one from @Black02Silverado. Get what ya pay for.  TESTOIL cannot compete with Nicks work by design.  12,000 miles and that wear is still terrible. 

Is it the same test from oil analyzers from amsoil or a different one?

 

 

[customboss]

25 minutes ago, Leo Opalewski said:

 

Leo, Polaris labs provides Amsoil contracted tests. 

TESTOIL runs ISO certified Synthetic Advantage tests that they can’t sell as their own. 
Nick explains that up front that it’s a stand-alone that sets its tests and protocols above and beyond what most labs provide. 
 

@OnTheReel I do about 2 tests from Nick twice a year for my engine. Once problems are ID’d and contained once a year can keep a unit optimized. 
Once you have a unit wear controlled the low cost SYNTHETIC ADVANTAGE TUNER is a smart way to go and easy on pocket book. 

The point of oil analysis is to ID then SOLVE not skin the unit owner.

 

[Grumpy Bear]

4 hours ago, customboss said:

Same thing with that oil analysis. Thats a generic industrial lab analysis. Not a good ISO Certified automotive one from @Black02Silverado. Get what ya pay for.  TESTOIL cannot compete with Nicks work by design.  12,000 miles and that wear is still terrible. 

 

 

 

So, you're saying the Elemental Spectroscopy ASTM D5185 test Test Oil uses in their "generic industrial lab analysis is not the same ASTM D5185 test Test Oil contracts with Synthetic Advantage?  Not true. 

 

My good man they are an ISO lab, or they are not. They comply to the ASTM standard or they do not. Industrial users would not use them otherwise as many are also ISO compliant so all their services must be as well. They don't have a special garbage industrial lab room where instruments and techs are not subject to ISO or that does not fall under the ISO umbrella. 

 

Same ASTM D445 viscosity and same GC ASTM D7593 fuels.  Same D4739 base number. 

 

Granted they do not do KF water but crackle.

 

While method number for FTIR Spectroscopy is different the difference is not in the instrument, operation or results but in what is ALLOWED TO BE DONE with that result. JOAP does not allow for comparison to another sample. Only the blank calibration cell that E2412 also uses but CAN have the VOA subtracted IF the end user wishes. Index numbers are identical. 

 

The major effective difference between these two services is the exact menu and KF water. Synthetic Advantage has a broader and more comprehensive menu that paints a clearer picture and comes with commentary from an actual tribologist. There is value in both.  

[customboss]

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

So, you're saying the Elemental Spectroscopy ASTM D5185 test Test Oil uses in their "generic industrial lab analysis is not the same ASTM D5185 test Test Oil contracts with Synthetic Advantage?  Not true. 

 

My good man they are an ISO lab, or they are not. They comply to the ASTM standard or they do not. Industrial users would not use them otherwise as many are also ISO compliant so all their services must be as well. They don't have a special garbage industrial lab room where instruments and techs are not subject to ISO or that does not fall under the ISO umbrella. 

 

Same ASTM D445 viscosity and same GC ASTM D7593 fuels.  Same D4739 base number. 

 

Granted they do not do KF water but crackle.

 

While method number for FTIR Spectroscopy is different the difference is not in the instrument, operation or results but in what is ALLOWED TO BE DONE with that result. JOAP does not allow for comparison to another sample. Only the blank calibration cell that E2412 also uses but CAN have the VOA subtracted IF the end user wishes. Index numbers are identical. 

 

The major effective difference between these two services is the exact menu and KF water. Synthetic Advantage has a broader and more comprehensive menu that paints a clearer picture and comes with commentary from an actual tribologist. There is value in both.  

Lay the two side by side and compare and answer your query carefully. 

Edited March 4, 2023 by customboss

[Grumpy Bear]

On 3/3/2023 at 11:53 PM, customboss said:

Lay the two side by side and compare and answer your query carefully. 

 

And? 

 

Save water, the ASTM methods are identical on all like test and performed in the same ISO lab. I'm not going down the JOAP vs E2412 FTIR discussion again as the results are identical. Machine calibration is identical. 

 

Synthetic Advantage menu differs. That was a given first reply. 

Synthetic Advantage Expert analysis differs. Also given on first reply. 

I also said there is VALUE in both. Should I have said ADDED VALUE?

  

Which service did I use? 

 

But sir, If I have to doubt accuracy of what is reported from one then both are suspect. Mom's biscuits are the same when she makes them for me or for you.  

 

Not everyone can afford the top shelf. I don't wear $2,000 Italian dress shoes but my feet still get great protection and comfort from my Florsheim. Eurofins is not Mc Donnals. 

 

About all I'm going to have to say on this. 

 

[customboss]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

And? putside

 

Save water, the ASTM methods are identical on all like test and performed in the same ISO lab. I'm not going down the JOAP vs E2412 FTIR discussion again as the results are identical. Machine calibration is identical. 

 

Synthetic Advantage menu differs. That was a given first reply. 

Synthetic Advantage Expert analysis differs. Also given on first reply. 

I also said there is VALUE in both. Should I have said ADDED VALUE?

  

Which service did I use? 

 

But sir, If I have to doubt accuracy of what is reported from one then both are suspect. Mom's biscuits are the same when she makes them for me or for you.  

 

Not everyone can afford the top shelf. I don't wear $2,000 Italian dress shoes but my feet still get great protection and comfort from my Florsheim. Eurofins is not Mc Donnals. 

 

About all I'm going to have to say on this. 

 

You are a squeeky wheel now aren't you? 

 

Seperate reply on the fact R&D labs get more standards calibration and outside scrutiny than internal production labs do ( like you worked at) from a certifier of test standards like we did at Cummins known as https://group.bureauveritas.com    Grumpy you never saw these guys in an audit that lasted a month because production and cookie cutter oil analysis labs don't cost benefit it.   

 

SyntheticAdvantage ISO CERTIFIED ANALYSIS is an attempt to duplicate that level of accuracy and in-depth reporting.  

 

Eurofins formerly Testoil was contracted and compete protected to a long time tribological consulting firm who Nick contracted with to produce his ISO CERTIFIED OIL ANALYSIS setting SyntheticAdvantage apart and convincing you as a sincerely science motivated individual to find good data.  EuroFins/Testoil broke the non compete inadvertantly as people who were existing customers bought online without realizing that they are not getting the same service.  Nick reminded them of that breach and they are aware.  Eurofins/Testoil is an industrial lab so they don't want to do in depth automotive analysis thus the agreement many years ago.  SyntheticAdvantage does automotive/aerospace/trucking etc. 

 

The NON SyntheticAdvantage work above adds lithium for its ICP work.  Lithium was dropped by SyntheticAdvantage because its not an additive in automotive lubes. 

NON gives 100C vis, thats it.   SyntheticAdvantage offers 40C vis, 100C,  VI calc

The NON offers Oxidation,Glycol,Soot and IR fuels dilution reported via E2412 indexing #.

Synthetic Advantage uses JOAP military standards  Oxidation,Nitration,Anti-wear,Sulfation,Glycol, Soot.  That standard is more consistent and repeatable to internal combustion engines for reasons we have discussed AND THE ANALYST WHO interprets it has more practical knowledge than any other lab or service. 

 

NON gets particle counting that is not needed nor consistently  accurate for darkened engine oils. 

 

NON gets TBN only   Synthetic Advantage TBN and TAN 

NON gets KF water testing but  SyntheticAdvantage reports PPM so its more detailed than just water. 

Both get GC fuels dilution. Note NON FTIR fuel was reported as 0.  FTIR is still not good enough to detect gasoline or diesel accurately to act on. 

 

SyntheticAdvantage is run to a higher standard first time through lab then QC by the analyst who performs an in-depth analysis and guide to solving problems.  We don't see the labs interpretation but if its a paragraph I would be surprised. 

 

SyntheticAdvantage samples are run seperately as priority and usually reported the same day they hit the lab so the truck owner can act on the information in NEAR real time.   

 

So the little guy (Nick) has carved out a special more indepth analysis result from a giant worldwide lab that can't compete against him and you are arguing about it here publicly? Why? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by customboss
Detailed water explanation and fuels FTIR.

[Grumpy Bear]

40 minutes ago, customboss said:

you are arguing about it here publicly? Why? 

 

Because I have a hard time with kids that are not happy with the biggest half of the Snickers bar and must have it all.

 

More later. Off to a haircut.  I'll mansplain it when I get back. 

 

 

[Black02Silverado]

The Synthetic Advantage ISO certified oil analysis is at a higher cost because it offers more than any other lab.  It isn't just a simple analysis that is ran along side of everything that comes through and processed the same.  It is more in-depth and the interpretation is more precise.  Not a generalized note that just goes off the universal averages.

 

You pay more but you also get "way" more.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Black02Silverado

[Leo Opalewski]

Lol

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Because I have a hard time with kids that are not happy with the biggest half of the Snickers bar and must have it all.

 

More later. Off to a haircut.  I'll mansplain it when I get back. 

 

 

 

Moving this to the Peckish Synapse. No need to trash Nick's thread. 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

UOA Labs

 

3/15/2023

 

A point of clarification is required. Listen carefully. IMHO;

 

Synthetic Advantage Advanced UOA test is currently the gold standard touchstone.

 

I never said otherwise but as some believe I have; there it is. Even the stripped-down Tuner version gives more information you can actually use than many labs 'complete' reports. 

 

At the other end of the spectrum, IMHO, is Blackstone. And not because I question the results of things like wear metals and additive concentrations or lack of certification under ISO standards. But rather they just don't test the things I feel are absolutely part of any test I have an interest in reading. TBN/TAN and Oxidation for starters. They give just enough to be useless WITHOUT a strong history with the oil under the microscope. They have one strength IMO. The library they keep on motor types that prove useful in knowing what is 'normal' or at least familiar and a mileage marker to extrapolate with. In short, they tell me much about the oils additives but not much about the oils condition nor the tools required to sort the issues. Blind guess work without foundation. 

 

There are labs in the middle. Once I know what I'm working with I have no issues with those services. Some of these include test I personally find very useful that the first two do not but that I can live without. Something I would use to maintain but not problem solve. 

 

No one is complete and yet Synthetic Advantage comes very close. It's my first choice for "Benchmark" work and problem-solving situations. For what it's worth. 

 

 

[OnTheReel]

RL 5w40 Euro, Fram Ultra. Starting to see some improvements. Same stuff went back in for the next one.

 

 4475194.pdf

[Black02Silverado]

On 6/10/2023 at 7:48 PM, OnTheReel said:

RL 5w40 Euro, Fram Ultra. Starting to see some improvements. Same stuff went back in for the next one.

 

  4475194.pdf 1.48 MB · 3 downloads

You need to take this to the dealer and show them this.  No real improvement.  For the short term oil change you iron and copper are way to high. Some serious issues need to be addressed.  Considering you didn't use Synthetic Advantage UOA service this doesn't show everything.