OCI, not when but why?

Atlas · December 1, 2025

5 hours ago, KARNUT said:

I agree. My parents and siblings showed horses out of our Farm in NJ. Later in Texas we used fifth wheels to stay in working out of town for awhile. We still had the born free slide ins. I asked the wife when we retired if she wanted to live the van life but with a motor home. For at least 30 years before retirement we used to go on cruises for Vacations. We usually end up in the casino. So we decided we rather casino hop but stay in the hotel instead of motor homes. Every one has a thing. I would have been happy either way. Being a cheep ass I would have bought a used one probably a motor home. There is a catch though. Some RV parks won’t let you park an old motor home or RV. You have to send them a picture first.

Yeah lots of nicer parks have a "10 year" rule. As if the daily rate at those places wouldn't keep the riffraff out anyway. Our first motorhome was about 10 years old when we bought it, but we kept it in tippy-top shape. Never had a problem. I understand the intent, but there are some RV park rules I really don't understand. Like the luxury parks that won't allow Super C's. Whatevs, there are other places to stay. But it's still a stupid rule.

I can't do casinos, some people love them but I won't set foot in one if I don't have to. Even if it's free or very cheap to stay in one of their attached RV parks.

KARNUT · December 1, 2025

30 minutes ago, Atlas said:

Yeah lots of nicer parks have a "10 year" rule. As if the daily rate at those places wouldn't keep the riffraff out anyway. Our first motorhome was about 10 years old when we bought it, but we kept it in tippy-top shape. Never had a problem. I understand the intent, but there are some RV park rules I really don't understand. Like the luxury parks that won't allow Super C's. Whatevs, there are other places to stay. But it's still a stupid rule.

I can't do casinos, some people love them but I won't set foot in one if I don't have to. Even if it's free or very cheap to stay in one of their attached RV parks.

It’s a mindset. We like to play cards. It’s the cheapest hobby I’ve had. They provide my rooms, food and drinks. It’s all first class. We spend about 10K a year for about 6 weeks of vacation. Sometimes we win. I used to spend that on cruises before hitting the casino or excursions. Classic cars and other hobbies were way more expensive. Some people spend that much just on booze. All considered a very cheap as a hobby or vacations.

diyer2 · December 1, 2025

We did the RV thing. Had 2 motor homes. Fun but expensive. I'm a Texas Holdem player, wife plays machines. Gambling is frustrating, but fun.

KARNUT · December 1, 2025

4 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

We did the RV thing. Had 2 motor homes. Fun but expensive. I'm a Texas Holdem player, wife plays machines. Gambling is frustrating, but fun.

We do the ultimate Texas Holden and Pai Gow . Our favorite place is Island View in Gulf Port. All kinds of drawings and perks. We’ve been all over. On the way to my brother in law’s we stop at the red river Choctaw Casino. I do slots some and video poker. You do good if you budget yourself. Pai GOW is the cheapest for long play. I’m far from a high Roller, just enough for the free stuff. I can’t vacation any cheaper. I can’t just sit on a beach. I’ve had the Vacation condo. I tried don’t like golf. Wife doesn’t like the drag racing life or sitting at car shows. We sit together play cards eat at the best places. The rooms are first class. We meet great people.

customboss · December 6, 2025

Check it out.

garagerog · December 6, 2025

Posted November 30 (edited)

On the subject of OCI, I posted about the hot mess I'm putting back on the road, the 3.4L Camaro.

I'm wondering if I should change the oil again after just a few hundred miles. The idea behind that is new oil with a proper detergent package has been cleaning/dissolving any crud in that engine, and has also been running through the last of the car's old nasty gas followed by a bottle of injector cleaner with a few gallons of fresh fuel.

garagerog · December 6, 2025

3 minutes ago, garagerog said:

This is from a prior post by Atlas that I just got around to reading on this thread, I kinda messed up just copying the pertinent parts but anyway I wonder if this engine might make a good test mule for Valvoline's Restore and Protect?

Posted November 30 (edited)

On the subject of OCI, I posted about the hot mess I'm putting back on the road, the 3.4L Camaro.

I'm wondering if I should change the oil again after just a few hundred miles. The idea behind that is new oil with a proper detergent package has been cleaning/dissolving any crud in that engine, and has also been running through the last of the car's old nasty gas followed by a bottle of injector cleaner with a few gallons of fresh fuel.

Atlas · December 6, 2025

I don't count on luck so I knew having a non-leaking 3.4 was too good to be true. The 2.8/3.1/3.4's are notorious for leaks. Restore and Protect isn't going to bring around the rear camshaft seal, which I think is going (has gone) bad. The back of the oil pan was a little cruddy when I got it, but not dripping. All this movement and driving after 10+ years of sitting has clearly awakened the engine because there's fresh oil back there. The flexplate is clean and dry but I can see wetness around the cam seal cover higher up.

I was going to change the oil and maybe run it some more if we get any more dry days, but now I think I'll just park it until next year. I know, a 31 year old engine with original seals and neglect, to NOT leak now, was a fantasy. I just don't know how I want to address it. To replace the cam seal either means pulling the transmission, engine, or both. And if I'm going to do all that work, I might as well re-seal the whole engine. Now THAT's a lot of work.

For the first oil change since buying it, I used Pennzoil Platinum 5w30. It's the correct weight, and I had 15 quarts of it leftover from a vehicle I sold earlier this year, so why not use it.

Edited December 6, 2025 by Atlas

KARNUT · December 7, 2025

47 minutes ago, Atlas said:

I don't count on luck so I knew having a non-leaking 3.4 was too good to be true. The 2.8/3.1/3.4's are notorious for leaks. Restore and Protect isn't going to bring around the rear camshaft seal, which I think is going (has gone) bad. The back of the oil pan was a little cruddy when I got it, but not dripping. All this movement and driving after 10+ years of sitting has clearly awakened the engine because there's fresh oil back there. The flexplate is clean and dry but I can see wetness around the cam seal cover higher up.

I was going to change the oil and maybe run it some more if we get any more dry days, but now I think I'll just park it until next year. I know, a 31 year old engine with original seals and neglect, to NOT leak now, was a fantasy. I just don't know how I want to address it. To replace the cam seal either means pulling the transmission, engine, or both. And if I'm going to do all that work, I might as well re-seal the whole engine. Now THAT's a lot of work.

For the first oil change since buying it, I used Pennzoil Platinum 5w30. It's the correct weight, and I had 15 quarts of it leftover from a vehicle I sold earlier this year, so why not use it.

Is it just wet or a leak. Some don’t address leaks unless there’s a spot the size of a softball on the concrete. Of course some things really bother people. High mileage oil is supposed to help the seals. Maybe that’s an option?

Atlas · December 7, 2025

1 hour ago, KARNUT said:

Is it just wet or a leak. Some don’t address leaks unless there’s a spot the size of a softball on the concrete. Of course some things really bother people. High mileage oil is supposed to help the seals. Maybe that’s an option?

It's just wet for now. Might leave a drop on the floor if I didn't wipe it. But it will bug me, none of my other cars leak so this one shouldn't either.

Generally I'm not a fan of products that make seals swell like HIgh Mileage engine oils do. It's a temporary fix for a condition that's terminal. Could it buy time, yes, but I'll have lots of it starting in February. No commitments, no travels, and it will still be rainy season.

garagerog · December 7, 2025

The '71 Chevelle I ordered back in the day and still have as a garage queen now leaked a little oil from the rear main seal from day 1. Never has gotten any worse over the years so I haven't replaced it, leaks a quart every 2500 miles or so. They used a 2 piece seal in those 350's until sometime in the 80's. I could have had it replaced easy enough when I had a clutch replacement, but no guarantee that the new 2 piece seal that was notorious for leaking wouldn't have been a leaker too, maybe even worse than the factory one. Leaking valve cover gaskets I solved easy enough by changing to Felpro gaskets. Only other oil leak was caused by an **** mechanic looking to drum up more business. After having him replace the rear axle bearings and seals he mentioned that I had an engine oil leak, maybe the valve cover gaskets he said. That made me suspicious from the get go, so after getting it home, I crawled under the car and sure enough, drip, drip, drip at idle. After thoroughly cleaning the area up, gouge marks from what I would guess was a small flat bladed screwdriver were evident in the bottom of the timing chain cover gasket, you could even see small flecks of the factory paint that had been dislodged from the gasket during the sabotage. After researching what was needed to replace the gasket, I decided I had nothing to lose by thoroughly cleaning the area up with some Brakleen, and after letting the area dry I ran a nice bead of red RTV gasket maker/sealant in the groove between the block and timing chain cover and also on the oil pan area for as far as I could reach. After curing and voila!, it worked and no more leaking. The poor old girl needs a new radiator and master cylinder, but osteoarthritis in the spine and rt. knee precludes me from doing that kind of work anymore, and for some reason I have trust issues with mechanics. The only people I trust to work on my girl are my grandson and step-grandson, but their distance from me precludes that.

customboss · December 9, 2025

On 12/6/2025 at 4:38 PM, Atlas said:

I don't count on luck so I knew having a non-leaking 3.4 was too good to be true. The 2.8/3.1/3.4's are notorious for leaks. Restore and Protect isn't going to bring around the rear camshaft seal, which I think is going (has gone) bad. The back of the oil pan was a little cruddy when I got it, but not dripping. All this movement and driving after 10+ years of sitting has clearly awakened the engine because there's fresh oil back there. The flexplate is clean and dry but I can see wetness around the cam seal cover higher up.

I was going to change the oil and maybe run it some more if we get any more dry days, but now I think I'll just park it until next year. I know, a 31 year old engine with original seals and neglect, to NOT leak now, was a fantasy. I just don't know how I want to address it. To replace the cam seal either means pulling the transmission, engine, or both. And if I'm going to do all that work, I might as well re-seal the whole engine. Now THAT's a lot of work.

For the first oil change since buying it, I used Pennzoil Platinum 5w30. It's the correct weight, and I had 15 quarts of it leftover from a vehicle I sold earlier this year, so why not use it.

Atlas , Here’s a chemistry that will fix a rubber rear main that’s not torn.

low cost too.

Edited December 9, 2025 by customboss

Atlas · December 9, 2025

2 hours ago, customboss said:

Atlas , Here’s a chemistry that will fix a rubber rear main that’s not torn.

low cost too.

I think the rear main is fine. Looks like it's a poorly designed camshaft seal that's held in place by a plate with 3 screws. Lots and lots of forum posts about those seals and leaking.

If I get after it in late Jan or Feb, I'll remove the transmission. That will let me tackle rear main (just in case)/ rear camshaft seal/ and oil pan seal. I'll also do the trans input shaft and tailshaft while I've got it out.

This is my reminder to really enjoy the car and keep it for a while if I do that. Else someone will be getting a lot of free work!

customboss · December 11, 2025

Grumpy Bear · December 13, 2025

It really is this simple.

OntheStribeckcurve.pdf

An interesting feature of the Stribeck Curve and one often missed is that wear and friction are not mutually exclusive. The lift point shown in the PDF separating friction caused by asperity contact or dirt and friction caused by increased viscosity beyond that point.

PDF also made the point that acidity also wears by erosion; Corrosive erosion.

Wear happens when 1.) fluid film thickness is less than asperity height, two body wear, abrasion; 2.) A particle harder than one of the surfaces and as large as the film thickness is passed trough, three body wear, abrasion or 3.) The lubricant becomes acidic or overly caustic. Corrosive erosion.

Anti-wear and Extreme Pressure additives are there for conditions that prevent sufficient film thickness. Acid package and corrosion inhibitors self explanatory.

This agenda that pushes the idea that the OEM's selection of viscosity will place the lubrication regime squarely at the "Lift Point" of Stribeck for all operating situations belies all common reason. It is a poor attempt to place it there under best operational scenarios and puts an abundance of reliance on the 'sacrificial' AW and EP systems. Which, by the way, API iteration over iteration are reduced.

A Plan for Failure?

By multiple example it has been shown that wear RATE is high early on even in the most refined machining finishes and that the RATE is a declining slope that last well beyond that required for good ring seal. In multiple cases past 50K miles. That it can be tracked (proved) with wear analysis and with fuel economy by an operator skilled enough to collect, control and process that data.

It has been shown that there is noise in that signal that is common and unavoidable thus trending is demanded. Data takes time and you will never know if a 2 ppm change/1K is a problem or within the systems standard deviation until you have enough points to extract that std/dev. You will never know without the 'context' of operations if a trend breaker is the result of aberrant operation of merely the product of another factor (corrosive wear i.e., from long TIME intervals even in weak acids). It's why OCI's have both a milage and TIME specification.

It has been shown that increases in viscosity beyond the OEM recommended call out CAN (not will) reduce wear rate AND increase fuel economy and that unless you test and observe you will never know. Give it the right circumstances and occasionally lighter is an improvement.

It has been shown that increased viscosity does not physically harm a motor nor interfere with hydraulic function of cam phasers.

It has been shown that acceptance of higher wear rates may (not will) take so long as to blind the willfully ignorant into believing one is as effective as the other. Doing what you've always done will get you the result you've always got but it can not get you a better result.

It has been shown that once optimal viscosity is well in hand that OCI length extensions will, at some point, increase 'RATE" of wear, induced corrosive wear, much earlier than common belief suggests. Both are found, not specified.

And it has been shown that most of what argued about in such threads has nothing really to do with the topic nor any impact in result. Just dirt in the water.