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Texcl2 I was a Cummins trained chem engineer and when there we licensed Cummins approved lubes the same way. Pay for your independent testing per our Cummins Engineering Standards CES.  All manufacturer's that want higher than cookie cutter, API, formulate to lowest common denominator do that.  

 

I worked with the founder of DEXOS Don Smolenski GM Fuels and Lubes R&D Dept and later when he was at EVONIK oil additive company. He was tasked with getting a world wide standard to stop deposits, wear and damage issues API only specs were wreaking on GM engines.  It helped but right now with the materials defects GM is showing in light of fuels diluted engine oils even DEXOS licensed products aren't protecting.  

 

Add in burning through TQ converters and clutches for the Dexos approved trans fluids. Heck when you have to ask Exxon Mobil to blend you a HP ATF for the 8 speed AT then maybe something wasn't up to speed with DEXOS VI? 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, customboss said:

Dexos was developed because API and ILSAC weren't good enough. So its a minor step up from them. 

 

Point of clarification if you please for this most interesting turn of phrase.

 

We need to be careful how we read this quote. Meeting the DEXOS standards does not mean there are not oils that exceed even the DEXOS standard. It just means there are oils that are licensed that meet the ILSAC and API standards for the class that do not.

 

I do not know ALL the DEXOS standard limits but a few are NOACK, base oil swaps and API Sequence VG cleanliness. 

 

For instance the API SP and ILSAC G6 limit for NOACK is 15%.

DEXOS1Gen3 standard is 12.5%.

Unlicensed AMSOIL SS 5W30 scores a 6. 😱

 

DEXOS standards were the GM response to engine failures due to the designs they choose to employ to meet certain strict government requirements. Alice chasing the rabbit down the hole. They designed a series of motors that defeated the CURRENT ILSAC/API classed oils ability then designed an oil that would (hopefully) restore that reliability then have done the rinse and repeat. In the interim they stop gapped failures with OLM roll backs and shaky repair procedures. Like re-ringing engines of up to 150K miles without bore prep. 

 

Not having the DEXOS seal does not mean the oil does not meet or exceed the entire standard. Just means there are those that are saying "I'm not paying you for an endorsement". The public then tosses them in with the group that can not pass the testing as they can not believe that an oil company would not pay for the privilege of paying for GM"s blessing?  Give that some thought..... I won't pay you to say I'm okay..... 

 

The API SP standards were tougher than the DEXOS1GEN2 so what does GM do? GEN3 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
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On 8/27/2022 at 10:08 AM, Texcl2 said:

Have y’all talked to the dealer to see if it voids the warranty? I know my dealer sells amsoil but won’t change my engine oil with it because it voids the warranty due to no dexos certification. Wonder if their atf has the proper certain? 

One would not have to worry about warranty for the most part using AMSOIL.  All of AMSOIL's products are covered under their own warranty.  If you did have a claim and the dealer wanted to deny the warranty, then you would contact the servicing AMSOIL dealer for that dealership.  He in turn would contact AMSOIL and also get a sample of the oil to be tested.  I can pretty much tell you the AMSOIL used would not be the cause of the failure and AMSOIL Corporate would also contact the dealership.  An oil analysis will determine the cause.  In my 22 years as an Independent AMSOIL Dealer, I have yet to hear of an issue due to the use of any AMSOIL product.  This is also talking to other Independent Dealers that have been using AMSOIL way longer than myself.

 

As for my 2016 Suburban's transmission going out at 82K miles, the fluid UOA came back pristine.  The failure was the quality of the torque converter and the use of active fuel management on these GM vehicles.  Once these 6L80E transmission are rebuilt with quality Sonnax parts and billet TC, they live a long life.  I have talked to many repair shops to get the whole story on this since I was a victim of GM's poor design per say, they only build to last past the warranty. There is no money in building something that will last and not need repairs. The repair shops I spoke with stated that once they rebuild with upgraded parts they have seen them go 200k miles or more.

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On 8/27/2022 at 11:26 PM, Texcl2 said:

. amsoil is refusing to pay for the dexos certification from GM from what I have heard but don’t quote me on it. 

AMSOIL products that list this spec, meet/exceed the dexos1™ Gen 3 specification. The cost is very high to pay GM to be put on their list.  Also every time AMSOIL reformulates to improve the product, they have to pay again. Manufacturers can't deny warranty coverage without showing the aftermarket part or lubricant caused a failure.

 

You can read more about AMSOIL's guarantee here.

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So here lies the problem, if you are using amsoil  and it doesn’t have the dexos spec required your poorly engineered tranny will go out at 60k miles, the oil will come back within amsoils spec so they won’t cover it and GM won’t cover the warranty so basically you’ll be sol or at the very least have to fight it out and since you violated the warranty agreement good luck.

Edited by Texcl2
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9 minutes ago, Texcl2 said:

So here lies the problem, if you are using amsoil  and it doesn’t have the dexos spec required your poorly engineered tranny will go out at 60k miles, the oil will come back within amsoils spec so they won’t cover it and GM won’t cover the warranty so basically you’ll be sol or at the very least have to fight it out and since you violated the warranty agreement good luck.

 

Fully understand your position. 

 

Since you are taking a position that says you are screwed if you use anything without DEXOS license.....there is a law in US that says unless GM gives away free fluid they cannot demand you use that fluid as long as the fluid meets or exceeds the standard and did not cause the failure.  DEXOS like ILSAC and API are setting minimum standards.  FEAR is what is being used here to ensure consumers use min standard products and pay dearly for it... IMHO. 

 

https://automotiveaftermarket.org/magnuson-moss/magnuson-moss-warranty-act/

 

Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act and Aftermarket Parts

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21 minutes ago, Texcl2 said:

So here lies the problem, if you are using amsoil  and it doesn’t have the dexos spec required your poorly engineered tranny will go out at 60k miles, the oil will come back within amsoils spec so they won’t cover it and GM won’t cover the warranty so basically you’ll be sol or at the very least have to fight it out and since you violated the warranty agreement good luck.

As customboss stated, the Magnuson-Moss-Warranty Act comes into play as well as if you contact AMSOIL they will also assist you.  Like stated above, GM has to show that the fault was with the oil.  Yes you have to argue, if you don't want to deal with it, then just use what the dealer sells and sleep well.  No harm no fowl.

 

There is also Synthetic Advantage ISO Certified UOA service that you can send a sample of the fluid off to. This is an independent laboratory, no connection to AMSOIL. 

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7 minutes ago, MrMonkei said:

Curious if anyone added an aftermarket intake system to the 2.7 both regular and HO versions?

I had the AFE kit and it was ok. Then I got the K&N one and it’s awesome but I kept getting a CEL and their support is awful. The 2.7L seems to like the extra air and I loved the sound of the K&N. 
 

S&B is working on one right now for the 2.7, should be out in the next few months. I’m waiting on that and running stock now. 

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  • 1 month later...

Thank you all for the insights to the 2019 2.7 turbo 4.  It's the end of 2022 right now and I was able recently to swap out my latest 2021, 3/4 ton 6.6 gas V8 for a new trail boss with the the high output 2.7 turbo.  My trucks have to thrive under varied conditions both on and off road.  A month into driving the new 2.7 and I have to say it's impressive.  The engine and tranny setup are super smooth and while I miss being able to put 4000 lbs into the truck, I don't miss the clunky drivetrain of the 6.6 3/4 ton.   I hope that my research has paid off on the truck with what seems the overwhelming majority of reports being good to excellent for the last 3 years.  Love the inline design like a diesel tractor but with better controlled heat and cooling.  In 2010, as a backup to my v8s, I picked up an inline 5 cylinder h3t hummer, which is at 300,000+ miles today with only regular maintenance, no major issues and turns 35" tires from pretty much new. It's not as well refined nor does it have the torque of the new 2.7.  To me, torque is important in the mix of weight and intended use. Time will tell of course how the new truck will do with all the hills, off road, carrying and towing I do (typically under 7000lbs these days). So far, at only 2000 plus miles, it's been fantastic. WP. 

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I just hit 8k miles on my ‘22 refresh 2.7 ho trailboss. At least half those miles were trailering a couple different boats and 50% of those miles were off road and on gravel. So far it’s been a great truck and I’m definitely not wanting for power. We live out in the boonies and much of the winter we will have to pile through snow and big drifts just to get to blacktop. That’s why I chose the trailboss. Will let y’all know how it goes once the snow starts and a couple -35f cold starts. The engine block heater is around a $1000 to install afterwards so make sure y’all order it with your truck!

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On 9/2/2022 at 12:42 PM, Black02Silverado said:

they only build to last past the warranty. There is no money in building something that will last and not need repairs. 

 

Who told you that? The repair shop? There certainly is money in building something that doesn't need repairs. First there is extended maintenance and second there is repeat buyers from brand value by not losing perceived reliability. You think people will just keep coming back having failure after failure every few years? Nope, they go to another brand and sales are lost...

 

In grad school we spent a good amount of time on the impact of brand value in one of my classes. If you have a product that is lower quality and tends to fail you will lose the customer base, plain and simple. From word of mouth to reviews, sales will be lost. There is very little value in designing a vehicle or part at this level to only last just past a warranty period. They are not at all doing that. Just because you had a failure doesn't mean that is the angle being taken. GM is known for building solid transmissions, but there are weak components or failures in all and they haven't avoided that, but overall they are solid units most of the time. 

 

How many on here have one failure then sit on the mountain they are on yelling "I will never buy another GM vehicle again"? Yeah, those lost sales do nothing for GM or any business/manufacturer; and that is exactly what would happen if all these failed not long after the warranty period. 

 

By designing for lasting just past the warranty period you take a high risk of it failing before the warranty ends, now you are on the hook for repairs, replacement and labor. That is not a risk any brand wants to take. I have worked on the finance side of a large companies warranty division, I know first hand the costs associated with recalls, replacements and repairs and what it does to the bottom line of a company and brand value. 

 

Paccar had a large scale main bearing failure in one of their MX line of engines while I was there, the cost was huge in just warranty claims and it came down to a design decision in engineering that something overlooked in a particular instance; or something along those lines as it has been a few years since I was there and this happened. Either way they didn't design it that way, it was something that reared its head later in a particular circumstance while engine braking. This took a hit on their quality surveys and cost them some sales on top of the large scale repair and replacement program they instituted and extending engine warranties further out. 

 

The ZF8, many regard as a fantastic transmission, while the ZF5 before was one of the worst. Try as you might it is a mechanical component build by machines and people, there will be flaws in any brand or bad apples. So no, it wasn't designed to last just past the warranty as that would cost more in brand perception and sales than the money saved on some lighter components at the front end; so let's not start this false narrative...

 

Tyler

Edited by Amcguy1970
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So the HO 2.7 would technically be the second generation? Do you think a lot of companies will use this for fleet? 
 

I wish there was more data on this power train. I’ll be looking to buy this upcoming spring. So far I haven’t read about any glaring issues.
 

 

But this engine must be built pretty damn stout to handle all that pressure, on the flip side it’s loaded with up to date technology that gives me pause, like the DFM and sliding cam. 
 

GM seems to have their priorities and funding into electric……do you think they invested enough research and development on this mill as compared to Ford like they do their ecoboost? Ford went all in back in 2010/11, but this is gm’s what, second boosted application in recent years? 
 

I wish there was more data. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/19/2022 at 11:05 AM, F-150stxguy said:

So the HO 2.7 would technically be the second generation? Do you think a lot of companies will use this for fleet? 
 

I wish there was more data on this power train. I’ll be looking to buy this upcoming spring. So far I haven’t read about any glaring issues.
 

 

But this engine must be built pretty damn stout to handle all that pressure, on the flip side it’s loaded with up to date technology that gives me pause, like the DFM and sliding cam. 
 

GM seems to have their priorities and funding into electric……do you think they invested enough research and development on this mill as compared to Ford like they do their ecoboost? Ford went all in back in 2010/11, but this is gm’s what, second boosted application in recent years? 
 

I wish there was more data. 

bro, there's tons of data, read this thread perhaps, there is no lifters on this motor, it's a proper 21st century motor built much like the 3.0 duramax which runs higher pressures like all diesels do (diesels ~2600 psi cylinder pressures at peak boost 25-30 psi, ford ecoboost ~2000 at peak boost of 18 psi, this 2.7 can do 22 psi so likely lands a little above 2000 psi at peak boost and naturally aspirated somewhere around 1000 psi fyi), but this 2.7 is the most truck designed 1/2 ton gas 21st century motor available imo, simplest design, inline, minimal cylinders, big jugs and long stroke, with 1 really kick ass healthy dual volute turbo that minimizes lag, just research the dual volute turbo for more on that little piece of awesomeness, but also watch the gm videos about this motor, it's not 2nd gen, still the same motor, just added about 1 kg (2.2 lbs) of webbing to strengthen the block and 30% stiffer crank and better bearings for the H.O., and yes it appears to have the least amount of flies on it in all of half tons, it's been out since 2019, it went into a Cadillac car as well, and it's now the only motor going into the gm midsize trucks for 2023 and forward, surely it will see more applications also, yes ford started the party but car design with v6 and twin turbos and square bore/stroke, gm went far more cummins formula with inline, big jugs with long stroke (read...way more torque than hp), dodge is so late to the party it's almost laughable, they at least have an inline coming but it's gonna be a short stroke twin turbo...again...the most 'trucky' of them all is still this 2.7 from GM, they designed it from the ground up to be a truck engine, passes the same durability testing as all their other truck engines...nice to see people finally catching on 😉

 

I'm 17,500 kms (10,800 miles) on my 2022 h.o. and absolutely love this thing every day, smiles per miles still there.

Edited by 4banger
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