Long Term Carbon Deposits

rah7777777 · May 25, 2019

there isnt anything about those valves from the pictures that would make me think they wouldnt last another 130k just fine. Yes, they have some junk on them and don't look brand new, but lets be real, as far as funtionality goes, they will be just fine for a long time.

Grumpy Bear · May 25, 2019

For those that believe a catch can is an absolute must, those valves could be polished like a mirror and it wouldn't change their minds. For anyone old enough to actually remember when 99.9% of all motors were carbureted and any form of EFI was yet to be invented they look just fine. In fact they look pretty darn good. Yes, we had detergent in fuel then.

Me thinks the bar is set a bit high.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Grumpy Bear

Doublebase · May 25, 2019

5 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

For those that believe a catch can is an absolute must, those valves could be polished like a mirror and it wouldn't change their minds. For anyone old enough to actually remember when 99.9% of all motors were carbureted and any form of EFI was yet to be invented they look just fine. In fact they look pretty darn good. Yes, we had detergent in fuel then.

Me thinks the bar is set a bit high.

I just think it's strange that you compare today's engines with engine technology from two generations ago. I know I don't want to go back to carbureted engines. I don't want an engine like that, where they were so filthy inside that the driveability and lifespan was reduced.

Carbon on valves can effect a few things, power, efficiency, and engine knock. It also can break off and enter the cylinder, scouring the walls. It even can cause the valve to not seat poroperly and cause compression loss and misfires. I mean, it's not exactly an ideal situation. And for the people saying...oh it's fine, it's nothing, it's no big deal. Well some of us do notice these things, we don't just Gas and go everyday. We care a little bit...we want the thing to run optimally for 300,000 miles without major repair. I know you're one of those people. Keep in mind your V6 is different than the V8...maybe not much different in mechanical design but it does not go into V4 mode nearly as much. And for whatever reason - whether it's the V4 mode, engine vacuum from more cylinders, tuning, whatever - the V8 uses more oil, and feels different than the V6. The V6 doesn't switch as much, doesn't get that low speed preignition fish biting feeling, and it doesn't shift gears nearly as much. It drives and feels totally different.

I love the V8, I am averaging 26 mpg again now that the welter has warmed up, but the thing uses oil. It has from day one. I have talked to GM techs, I run a facility in which I see several of these things everyday (the V8's use oil). And it goes right into that intake and it coats right onto the back of those valves. Every single damn one of them that come in, I check it, they all use oil. I'm sure some will chime in...mine doesn't use oil...well I'm happy for you, I've just never seen it.

As far as catch cans go, hey I don't know if they're the "answer". I think someone posted above that it did help, it's a bandaid...it's a slowing down the effects, type of thing. I did install one - a cheap one - but it seems to "catch" quite a bit. I know the cheap cans are thoroughly roasted by the catch can "experts", but I did my research. Again, I'm not a catch can junky, I could care less. And I don't believe cleaners and fuel injector cleaner this, cleaner that...seafoam...CRC, magic unicorn tears, is going to do much of anything. But it doesn't cost me much to try, and it doesn't take me long to empty a can every few weeks and run a "cleaner" through every oil change. Just my 2 cents.

I'll be changing my oil next week, I'll try to remember to take a picture with a boroscope. Not sure if one can get in there and really get into those ports but I'll try (I've been meaning to take a look). 30,000 miles, 5.3, 2018...catch can since 10,000 miles, bought the truck new last year.

Jacoby · May 25, 2019

1 hour ago, Doublebase said:

I just think it's strange that you compare today's engines with engine technology from two generations ago. I know I don't want to go back to carbureted engines. I don't want an engine like that, where they were so filthy inside that the driveability and lifespan was reduced.

Carbon on valves can effect a few things, power, efficiency, and engine knock. It also can break off and enter the cylinder, scouring the walls. It even can cause the valve to not seat poroperly and cause compression loss and misfires. I mean, it's not exactly an ideal situation. And for the people saying...oh it's fine, it's nothing, it's no big deal. Well some of us do notice these things, we don't just Gas and go everyday. We care a little bit...we want the thing to run optimally for 300,000 miles without major repair. I know you're one of those people. Keep in mind your V6 is different than the V8...maybe not much different in mechanical design but it does not go into V4 mode nearly as much. And for whatever reason - whether it's the V4 mode, engine vacuum from more cylinders, tuning, whatever - the V8 uses more oil, and feels different than the V6. The V6 doesn't switch as much, doesn't get that low speed preignition fish biting feeling, and it doesn't shift gears nearly as much. It drives and feels totally different.

I love the V8, I am averaging 26 mpg again now that the welter has warmed up, but the thing uses oil. It has from day one. I have talked to GM techs, I run a facility in which I see several of these things everyday (the V8's use oil). And it goes right into that intake and it coats right onto the back of those valves. Every single damn one of them that come in, I check it, they all use oil. I'm sure some will chime in...mine doesn't use oil...well I'm happy for you, I've just never seen it.

As far as catch cans go, hey I don't know if they're the "answer". I think someone posted above that it did help, it's a bandaid...it's a slowing down the effects, type of thing. I did install one - a cheap one - but it seems to "catch" quite a bit. I know the cheap cans are thoroughly roasted by the catch can "experts", but I did my research. Again, I'm not a catch can junky, I could care less. And I don't believe cleaners and fuel injector cleaner this, cleaner that...seafoam...CRC, magic unicorn tears, is going to do much of anything. But it doesn't cost me much to try, and it doesn't take me long to empty a can every few weeks and run a "cleaner" through every oil change. Just my 2 cents.

I'll be changing my oil next week, I'll try to remember to take a picture with a boroscope. Not sure if one can get in there and really get into those ports but I'll try (I've been meaning to take a look). 30,000 miles, 5.3, 2018...catch can since 10,000 miles, bought the truck new last year.

Don’t feed the grumpy bear. Its a mistake I don’t want you to make

May 25, 2019

I want to see a 130k motor with catch can. You can get cheap smartphone scopes on amazon.

Grumpy Bear · May 25, 2019

7 hours ago, Doublebase said:

1.) I just think it's strange that you compare today's engines with engine technology from two generations ago. I know I don't want to go back to carbureted engines. I don't want an engine like that, where they were so filthy inside that the driveability and lifespan was reduced.

2.) Carbon on valves can effect a few things, power, efficiency, and engine knock. It also can break off and enter the cylinder, scouring the walls. It even can cause the valve to not seat poroperly and cause compression loss and misfires. I mean, it's not exactly an ideal situation. And for the people saying...oh it's fine, it's nothing, it's no big deal. Well some of us do notice these things, we don't just Gas and go everyday. We care a little bit...we want the thing to run optimally for 300,000 miles without major repair. I know you're one of those people. Keep in mind your V6 is different than the V8...maybe not much different in mechanical design but it does not go into V4 mode nearly as much. And for whatever reason - whether it's the V4 mode, engine vacuum from more cylinders, tuning, whatever - the V8 uses more oil, and feels different than the V6. The V6 doesn't switch as much, doesn't get that low speed preignition fish biting feeling, and it doesn't shift gears nearly as much. It drives and feels totally different.

3.) I love the V8, I am averaging 26 mpg again now that the welter has warmed up, but the thing uses oil. It has from day one. I have talked to GM techs, I run a facility in which I see several of these things everyday (the V8's use oil). And it goes right into that intake and it coats right onto the back of those valves. Every single damn one of them that come in, I check it, they all use oil. I'm sure some will chime in...mine doesn't use oil...well I'm happy for you, I've just never seen it.

4.) As far as catch cans go, hey I don't know if they're the "answer". I think someone posted above that it did help, it's a bandaid...it's a slowing down the effects, type of thing. I did install one - a cheap one - but it seems to "catch" quite a bit. I know the cheap cans are thoroughly roasted by the catch can "experts", but I did my research. Again, I'm not a catch can junky, I could care less. And I don't believe cleaners and fuel injector cleaner this, cleaner that...seafoam...CRC, magic unicorn tears, is going to do much of anything. But it doesn't cost me much to try, and it doesn't take me long to empty a can every few weeks and run a "cleaner" through every oil change. Just my 2 cents.

I'll be changing my oil next week, I'll try to remember to take a picture with a boroscope. Not sure if one can get in there and really get into those ports but I'll try (I've been meaning to take a look). 30,000 miles, 5.3, 2018...catch can since 10,000 miles, bought the truck new last year.

What a thoughtfully composed reply. I commend you and appreciate you insights. I will attempt the same in reply. I've numbered the paragraphs for ease of reference.

1.) The first two sentence's you surely would agree are a matter for opinion so I confine myself to the last sentence which is a matter of maintenance. Our family on my fathers side take some pride in motors of the era and long before with useful lifespans measured in human life times and a million or more miles. Uncle Roberts 193* Ford Flathead has 1 million on the clock. One rebuild at around 100K. Uncle Garry three over 500K. Leo unnumbered over 300K and Dad has several in the 300 to 750K status. All of these on zero rebuilds. One I saw open at 300 K with an oil pan you could have used for a shaving mirror. Motor date ranges 1928 to present for all. But more than half predating 1970. Internal filth isn't about technology of the build but faithfulness of the maintenance. Oils were not as good as today so we changed it more often and we kept tighter reign on temperatures. Some motors oil was changed as often as every thousand miles. Others two thousand. With todays oils and Dad's routine he is working on the 10K method.

2.) Yes I take the long range view indeed but my particular 4.3 spends the majority of it's running hours in the V-4 mode. At least in the 5K OCI intervals she uses no oil. An exception it may truly be and if so then it works against the idea that AFM is an 'automatic' issue. Back when lead was taken from fuel people worried about valve seats and the 'fear' frenzy of the day was to pull the heads and have them cut for hard seats or the sky will fall. In motors like dump trucks and school busses this proved to be true...however for Joe & Cindy Average...not so much. We still got hundreds of thousands from them when the service was as a commuter. Motor builders made a ton of money fixing things not broken. Chemical companies selling lead substitutes not needed.

3.) No intention to sound condescending but ever think that the perfect ones wouldn't be in your shop? Why would a fella ask you to open up a motor that runs well and isn't using? Even at that, I still can not say with any certainty that you are mistaken and so will defer to your experience. But we both know that oil usage has a great deal with vehicle usage. I'm positive that someone could take Pepper, who has never used a drop and force her to use a quart in 500 miles. No doubt in my mind. My brother-in-law case in point the last time I let him use my Honda. Never again LOL. While this may sound like I'm waffling it is going to a very specific point...soon.

4.) Point. Every year thousands of people get cancer and yet not one person would agree that 100% of the population should receive Chemotherapy and Radiation as a prophylactic. All would agree that there are preventative steps (maintenance) that can greatly reduce the risk. Good diet, exercise, don't smoke and so on. Change your oil, use a good filter, reasonable OCI, don't beat it like a whelped pup. I'm not opposed to a catch can.

I'm opposed to the idea that there is an absolute need to cure an issue you can avoid...most of the time.

I'm also at issue with those the scoff at prevention and insist on the cure.

I have nothing but contempt for FEAR MARKETING.

I'm very much opposed to people that get the visual proof then scoff at the result in one line profanities.

5.) Looking forward to the results of your study. Very much interested indeed. I LOVE data...you know that.

KARNUT · May 25, 2019

I get amused at the whole catch can thing as well as the paint protection threads. I get it for the very few people who keep vehicles for a long time. My diesel trucks and equipment spent most of their lives at or near red line, a few gas rigs too. I used synthetics to extend my oil changes on those. Having them last longer wasn’t expected. Deposits on valve stems don’t worry me as long as the value closes. Most of my money was spent on performance mods. In the many vehicles I’ve owned very few have failed. Not from anything I did. As far as lasting passed 150-180 K couldn’t tell you. They were gone by then. I never had problems with paint, even without the fancy paint protection products. Maybe the second or third owner would appreciated all the fuss.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doublebase · May 25, 2019

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

What a thoughtfully composed reply. I commend you and appreciate you insights. I will attempt the same in reply. I've numbered the paragraphs for ease of reference.

1.) The first two sentence's you surely would agree are a matter for opinion so I confine myself to the last sentence which is a matter of maintenance. Our family on my fathers side take some pride in motors of the era and long before with useful lifespans measured in human life times and a million or more miles. Uncle Roberts 193* Ford Flathead has 1 million on the clock. One rebuild at around 100K. Uncle Garry three over 500K. Leo unnumbered over 300K and Dad has several in the 300 to 750K status. All of these on zero rebuilds. One I saw open at 300 K with an oil pan you could have used for a shaving mirror. Motor date ranges 1928 to present for all. But more than half predating 1970. Internal filth isn't about technology of the build but faithfulness of the maintenance. Oils were not as good as today so we changed it more often and we kept tighter reign on temperatures. Some motors oil was changed as often as every thousand miles. Others two thousand. With todays oils and Dad's routine he is working on the 10K method.

2.) Yes I take the long range view indeed but my particular 4.3 spends the majority of it's running hours in the V-4 mode. At least in the 5K OCI intervals she uses no oil. An exception it may truly be and if so then it works against the idea that AFM is an 'automatic' issue. Back when lead was taken from fuel people worried about valve seats and the 'fear' frenzy of the day was to pull the heads and have them cut for hard seats or the sky will fall. In motors like dump trucks and school busses this proved to be true...however for Joe & Cindy Average...not so much. We still got hundreds of thousands from them when the service was as a commuter. Motor builders made a ton of money fixing things not broken. Chemical companies selling lead substitutes not needed.

3.) No intention to sound condescending but ever think that the perfect ones wouldn't be in your shop? Why would a fella ask you to open up a motor that runs well and isn't using? Even at that, I still can not say with any certainty that you are mistaken and so will defer to your experience. But we both know that oil usage has a great deal with vehicle usage. I'm positive that someone could take Pepper, who has never used a drop and force her to use a quart in 500 miles. No doubt in my mind. My brother-in-law case in point the last time I let him use my Honda. Never again LOL. While this may sound like I'm waffling it is going to a very specific point...soon.

4.) Point. Every year thousands of people get cancer and yet not one person would agree that 100% of the population should receive Chemotherapy and Radiation as a prophylactic. All would agree that there are preventative steps (maintenance) that can greatly reduce the risk. Good diet, exercise, don't smoke and so on. Change your oil, use a good filter, reasonable OCI, don't beat it like a whelped pup. I'm not opposed to a catch can.

I'm opposed to the idea that there is an absolute need to cure an issue you can avoid...most of the time.

I'm also at issue with those the scoff at prevention and insist on the cure.

I have nothing but contempt for FEAR MARKETING.

I'm very much opposed to people that get the visual proof then scoff at the result in one line profanities.

5.) Looking forward to the results of your study. Very much interested indeed. I LOVE data...you know that.

Probably just more conversational than anything else (I like talking car maintenance).

Yeah I'm really hoping I can get some pictures of those valves, and if they don't look "good", I'll probably scrap the catch can (as it can be a little bit of a pain to empty every 3-4 weeks). Well I shouldn't say it's a pain, but if it's not helping I'm not going to bother.

But just a recap of my maintenance history with this vehicle...owned since new, oil changes every 5,000 miles...diff fluid changed at 25,000 miles, transmission fluid changed at 25,000 miles. Mostly highway commuting. The truck has a pretty easy life, but it is driven a ton.

I love the stories of the older engines making it to such high mileage, definitely something I'm not used to seeing. In my opinion those days, that technology wasn't known for that in general. Exceptions? Yes, certainly your family figured it out with their methods. But I find the port injection engines have been...well it's been a pretty good run in terms of longevity. They did go through their hiccups but up until direct injection hit the scene (and cafe regulations), it was pretty common to see a lot of those engines lasting to 250,000 miles without major problems (even without great maintenance history). I think there's been an adjustment period with direct injection...a cutting of the teeth, so to speak.

As for the cars ive seen come into the shop, I'll tell you there's just some designs...some brands where it doesn't matter what you do, they were just poorly designed and there was no saving them. Whether it was cooling system design, or lubrication system design...some engines (not many) are just poorly designed. They're mistakes and they're talked about in the industry forever. It's stuff you just see over and over...whether it was Toyota's 3.0 sludge monster...or GM's intake gasket failures on 3.4's. Nothing was going to stop it from happening. The Silverados I think are pretty solid, I do see the oil usuage on them though...like I said it's been on every one of them we service. But like I also said, that's pretty "normal" on direct injection cars in general right now. I have seen a few of the 2012's with the oil fouled spark plugs. I also see a lot of the 2014's and up, being stuck in 4wd (it's best to shift it back into 2wd overnight if it gets bellow freezing). But other than that everyone seems to be happy with them. I love mine, I'm hoping with great maintenance I can take this thing to 300,000 without major repairs.

Doublebase · May 25, 2019

1 hour ago, KARNUT said:

I get amused at the whole catch can thing as well as the paint protection threads. I get it for the very few people who keep vehicles for a long time. My diesel trucks and equipment spent most of their lives at or near red line, a few gas rigs too. I used synthetics to extend my oil changes on those. Having them last longer wasn’t expected. Deposits on valve stems don’t worry me as long as the value closes. Most of my money was spent on performance mods. In the many vehicles I’ve owned very few have failed. Not from anything I did. As far as lasting passed 150-180 K couldn’t tell you. They were gone by then. I never had problems with paint, even without the fancy paint protection products. Maybe the second or third owner would appreciated all the fuss.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah I just think you said it yourself...you don't know or care what a vehicle does after 150,000 miles, and that's certainly fine. For the people that keep them long term, or drove a ton of miles, life after 150,000 miles is a very real environment we live in.

KARNUT · May 25, 2019

Yeah I just think you said it yourself...you don't know or care what a vehicle does after 150,000 miles, and that's certainly fine. For the people that keep them long term, or drove a ton of miles, life after 150,000 miles is a very real environment we live in.

You didn’t read it all. I get it for people who keep them a long time. Not that many people go that long before trade in. I do see vehicles that old obviously, usually second third owners.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doublebase · May 26, 2019

14 hours ago, KARNUT said:

You didn’t read it all. I get it for people who keep them a long time. Not that many people go that long before trade in. I do see vehicles that old obviously, usually second third owners.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No I did read it all, and I understood it. You haven't had problems up until the 150,000-180,000 you owned your trucks. Your money is/was spent on mods (I'm assuming instead of paint protection or catch cans). And despite that you had no problems up until the 150,000 miles when you traded them in.

So you're trying to make the point that you can own a vehicle till 150,000 without worry, and even beat on it. I would say that's correct. I would say most vehicles should make it to 130,000-150,000 without major repair, without much effort. I would also say that with longer driving commutes to work, there are plenty of people looking to get more than 150,000 miles out of their vehicles. I really don't see how a $29 dollar catch can is hurting anything in the grand scheme of things. Maybe it's keeping the valves a little cleaner? That's not a bad thing or waste of time. It's certainly not a waste of money. It's an easy install. It's no big deal by any stretch of the imagination. I mean I'd consider it to the level of buying, opening and installing an air freshener. It's that simple...two hoses and a clamp. The thing that bugs me is the whole...my catch can is better than yours. My catch can is special. If you don't use my catch cans, you'll go straight to hell. How could you not use our catch cans? Don't you want the best catch cans? I caught a unicorn once in my catch can - and it was happy I did - then I just let it go in some majestic Forrest right down the street. I can still here it galloping if I listen closely. Isn't that the catch can you want? That's the stuff I can't stand.

KARNUT · May 26, 2019

No I did read it all, and I understood it. You haven't had problems up until the 150,000-180,000 you owned your trucks. Your money is/was spent on mods (I'm assuming instead of paint protection or catch cans). And despite that you had no problems up until the 150,000 miles when you traded them in.

So you're trying to make the point that you can own a vehicle till 150,000 without worry, and even beat on it. I would say that's correct. I would say most vehicles should make it to 130,000-150,000 without major repair, without much effort. I would also say that with longer driving commutes to work, there are plenty of people looking to get more than 150,000 miles out of their vehicles. I really don't see how a $29 dollar catch can is hurting anything in the grand scheme of things. Maybe it's keeping the valves a little cleaner? That's not a bad thing or waste of time. It's certainly not a waste of money. It's an easy install. It's no big deal by any stretch of the imagination. I mean I'd consider it to the level of buying, opening and installing an air freshener. It's that simple...two hoses and a clamp. The thing that bugs me is the whole...my catch can is better than yours. My catch can is special. If you don't use my catch cans, you'll go straight to hell. How could you not use our catch cans? Don't you want the best catch cans? I caught a unicorn once in my catch can - and it was happy I did - then I just let it go in some majestic Forrest right down the street. I can still here it galloping if I listen closely. Isn't that the catch can you want? That's the stuff I can't stand.

I also said I understand people who keep them longer doing the things you suggest. We’re on the same page. I believe most people keep them in the range I do. My wife’s car is a 2011 with a DI engine with 94K miles no catch can it runs great. Every GM I’ve owned since the 70s I did mods on. The way the industry has gone I’ll just keep my old truck. The new stuff I’ll just drive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

STRMTRPR · May 26, 2019

27 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

The way the industry has gone I’ll just keep my old truck. The new stuff I’ll just drive.

diyer2 · May 26, 2019

My 2012 is not DI so I'm not in the same boat as the newer engines.

But wouldn't the NOAK of the oil being used come into play?

So a better oil like Red Line/ Amsoil with a lower NOAK should help keep the valves cleaner?

EDIT I'm talking the valves on a DI engine.

Edited May 26, 2019 by diyer2

KARNUT · May 26, 2019

My 2012 is not DI so I'm not in the same boat as the newer engines.
But wouldn't the NOAK of the oil being used come into play?
So a better oil like Red Line/ Amsoil with a lower NOAK should help keep the valves cleaner?

[emoji4]

My brother in law keeps vehicles a long time. He just took his wife’s 08 Tahoe with 180K miles. Bough her a low mileage 13. That how he does it for the 40 years I’ve known him. He 250K mileage Chevy p/u he gave his daughter for college. Of all the Chevy SUVs he’s had the 08 has weather the best. He does 5k oil changes and top tier gas. They still use the 08 for trips. He says he want to keep the mileage off the 13. I think they like the 08 better, I do. I can feel the cylinder deactivation. I think he can too. It’s the year model I told him to skip. I was just too good of a deal.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk