Just put the wrong oil in.....have a road trip tomorrow. Cancel or let it rip?

davester · November 25, 2019

If your OCD, you have to drop the pan and wipe it out, remove and empty the oil pump, change the filter, blow out the oil cooler lines, then reassemble the engine and fill it with the right stuff. Run the engine a bit, drain the oil, change the filter again, and refill with oil. Maybe once more, because there probably are still a few molecules of the bad oil still in there...

mookdoc6 · November 25, 2019

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 12:41 PM, Grumpy Bear said:

We are talking about 2 centistokes at 100 C viscosity. Less than a point at HTHS. 10 mph load change makes more vis difference than that from the heat increase. That AFM VVT won't know the difference. Enjoy the trip.

2 centistokes! Like Channel 12 to 13....LOL

L86 All Terrain · November 25, 2019

High compression engine, winter time, 5w-30 compared to 0w-20 is like molasses to water. Not me personally, but have at 'er. The only time I go thicker is when the engine is worn out. I put some left over 0w-20 in my lawnmower with shot piston rings this summer and it smoked out my neighborhood and fouled a plug. Refilled with 15w-40 diesel oil and finished out the season with minimal smoke. Oil viscosities can make a big difference. I am sure it will be fine but for the minimal effort I would just drain it into your wife's clean roast pan and put in 0w-20, put the 5w30 back in your 0w20 bottles, label and use on the wife's car later on. If something did ever happen to the motor, you would void your warranty when they do a sample.

truckguy82 · November 26, 2019

I run 5w-30 in my truck

vettes and camaro’s call for it with the same exact motor

lol at everybody thinking it’s not ok

1SLOW1500 · November 26, 2019

Slow, stick to forced induction and tuning discussions because when it turns to oil talk you’re coming up short pal.

Ha well I do more then force induction. I had na 800hp motor and now playing with something similar in the new engines. I also spend my time at shops seeing new development and prototyping.
So I spend a hour at the shop looking at shelfs full of parts and speaking to some engineers. There is way way more to the oil spec then anyone(including myself) has said on this thread. The key reasons for the oil are NOT simply fuel economy.
It seems there has been much debate in the automotive industry over this, some of the reason we have new spec fluids and synthetics of all types and claims.
How can I say this without saying to much...so there are some oil based issues that engineers are looking at now. In fact a 3rd party just finished a test on a new long block and it will be stripped down. They do not change oil just run engine straight for days of abuse.
Best he said is everyone is a expert on the internet. So let them do to their engines what they like. Google experts. As far as the black magic comment, that was to say it is next to impossible to know what is in the oil you buy of self and more so the claims they make of them.
But the pros know what works and why. He also had a tray/display of main bearings that had different oils and additives. So there is a little more to it then just weight. Also the amount of junk valve train they had there to inspect was alarming. This was gm not 3rd party shop. Next I go to see new race engines for corvettes. See what tricks I can learn.
I quit just not worth my time here anymore. To many experts not enough knowledge.
Question was should he change it. Answer was for the cost and the possible issues...yes. people will not add a catch can because worry or warranty but will add oil with zero regard. Then we see post of dealers needing parts to replace the afm and owners out trucks for month or more...
[emoji849]

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2kwik4u · November 26, 2019

Since I started this mess, guess I should chime in.

There really hasn't been any technical information communicated aside from @Grumpy Bear 's post. That post (with good quantitative information), and a verbal conversation with a good friend that has had more AFM motors apart than he cares to admit gave me the confidence to run it like it is. I think @1SLOW1500 hasn't provided any qualitative reasoning for it being a bad idea, and is standing on his reputation at this point. @SierraHD17 called him on it, and well, he just leaned into the reputation instead of providing facts. Which is fine, everyone can evaluate it for what it's worth. I would like to see some good quantitative evidence of why it's a bad idea. Failed bearings, plugged lifters, overheated pistons, locked wrist pins, SOMETHING to say it's a colossally bad idea.

I'm not taking it on a track day. My towing needs are over until spring. My warranty expired years ago. The risk of running the heavier oil was low enough that it didn't warrant another $70, and 90min of time to change out. We all have our level of comfort with risk, I'm OK with this one, clearly others are not. I'm going to risk it until a slightly earlier change at 90k miles (~3,500mi away at this point). I'll report back any findings when I drain it, or if the poo hits the fan before then.

Edited November 26, 2019 by 2kwik4u
Spelling.....I'm not great at it.

KARNUT · November 26, 2019

Ok I found it. I will add this as a proven example. I’m not saying it matters here but food for thought. When Ford came out with the 4.6 it had long timing chains and oil tensioners. They called for lighter oil. Of course everyone knew better. The results were over pumped tensioners and stretch noisy chains. I would follow the manufacturer.

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SierraHD17 · November 26, 2019

20 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

Ok I found it. I will add this as a proven example. I’m not saying it matters here but food for thought. When Ford came out with the 4.6 it had long timing chains and oil tensioners. They called for lighter oil. Of course everyone knew better. The results were over pumped tensioners and stretch noisy chains. I would follow the manufacturer.

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Gm released the afm system that everyone likes basing this oil problem on in 2005.... all the way through 2013 the spec was 5w30 in the LS's... Little known fact is the bottom end of these LT's is identical enough to an LS you can interchange the cranks and rods... I know this... I do this stuff lol. Bearing clearances haven't changed either. Same goes for the lifters and how the VLOM distributes oil.. The pump has changed to a vein style with an electronic pressure relief but still. Now the only wrench in the system is differing specs based on application or engines for that matter. Of course a car is tuned differently.. and as pointed out the LT1 cars spec even quote on quote "heavier oil" at 0W40 and 5W40 for competition use and then 5w30 for daily use... If the engines actually differed mechanically then you could be 100% on oil being a problem but they don't... People forget the 4.3 which is still an afm engine and same spec as the 5.3 and 6.2 calls for 5w30 as well. So what gives?.. CAFE as pointed out many times.

Ford boards have had this discussion for ages too after the 5 liter debuted spec'ing 5w20 in the trucks but 5w30 or higher under competition use in the Mustang. The bearing clearances and most parts short of the cams and exterior bolt ons are identical yet guys swear if you run 5w30 in a 5 liter truck it will blow up lol. It gets old after a while.

Edited November 26, 2019 by SierraHD17

KARNUT · November 26, 2019

Gm released the afm system that everyone likes basing this oil problem on in 2005.... all the way through 2013 the spec was 5w30 in the LS's... Little know fact is the bottom end of these LT's is identical enough to an LS you can interchange the cranks and rods... I know this... I do this stuff lol. Bearing clearances haven't changed either. Same goes for the lifters and how the VLOM distributes oil.. The pump has changed to a vein style with an electronic pressure relief but still. Now the only wrench in the system is differing specs based on application or engines for that matter. Of course a car is tuned differently.. and as pointed out the LT1 cars spec even quote on quote "heavier oil" at 0W40 and 5W40 for competition use and the 5w30 for daily use... If the engines actually differed mechanically then you could be 100% on oil being a problem but they don't... People forget the 4.3 which is still an afm engine and same spec as the 5.3 and 6.2 calls for 5w30 as well. So what gives... CAFE as pointed out many times.

Ford boards have had this discussion for ages too after the 5 liter debuted spec'ing 5w20 in the trucks but 5w30 or higher under competition use in the Mustang. The bearing clearances and most parts short of the cams and exterior bolt ons are identical yet guys swear if you run 5w30 in a 5 liter truck it will blow up lol. It gets old after a while.

I can’t and don’t try to keep up with oil anymore. In the 90s-2000s we ran Amsoil in everything. Extended everything. I ran 20-50 in my 94 Z-28 and impala ss. My diesels and land clearing tractors. Hundreds of those. No problems. Today’s engines with cylinder deactivation etc., id go strictly by manufacturer. My wife’s Genesis is under 4K miles semi synthetic. My Camry is 10K. My 2 others once a year due to little use. It used to be simple, not anymore.

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2kwik4u · November 26, 2019

22 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

Ok I found it. I will add this as a proven example. I’m not saying it matters here but food for thought. When Ford came out with the 4.6 it had long timing chains and oil tensioners. They called for lighter oil. Of course everyone knew better. The results were over pumped tensioners and stretch noisy chains. I would follow the manufacturer.

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Thanks for the addition. Good info.

Jacoby · November 27, 2019

On 11/25/2019 at 1:50 PM, L86 All Terrain said:

High compression engine, winter time, 5w-30 compared to 0w-20 is like molasses to water.

Now find the 2 key words in this sentence. “Winter time”. Like I said earlier climate has a lot to do with what oil weight you run. In the frozen tundra of the northern states and Canada, 0w-20 makes all the sense in the world. In TX where we may get a few freezes a year, it doesn’t. You can’t argue with that logic. When you average 90-100* temps every day over multiple months 20 weight simply doesn’t make sense.

10 hours ago, 2kwik4u said:

I think @1SLOW1500 hasn't provided any qualitative reasoning for it being a bad idea, and is standing on his reputation at this point and well, he just leaned into the reputation instead of providing facts.

Greatest post ever.

me and you are gonna get along great I can already tell.

9 hours ago, KARNUT said:

Grumpy Bear · November 27, 2019

Do you see where all SAE 'Grades' of oil end at 100 C? (212 F). This is the summer number.

0 C (32 F), the lower range of this chart shows the difference in the 'winter' number.

Note they chose starting points of 5W, 10W, 15W and 20W for the winter (cold) end of the scale and W30, W40 and W50 for the summer (hot) end.

0W oil has a absolute viscosity maximum of 60,000 centipoise at a negative 40 degrees C (-40F). The density of 0W is roughly .9 at - 40 F so 54,000 cSt is the pumping viscosity. This chart only goes to 3,000 cSt. That is cement your pump is pumping and yet it does it and your motor runs just fine. If you are unfortunate enough to reach an oil temperature of 150 C (305 F) your viscosity is about the same a whole milk at room temperature for any SAE grade of W40 or less. That's you HTHS number.

At the hot end of the scale 100C, the difference between 5W30 and 0W20 is, as I said before like 2 cSt. While on a percentage scale that is huge but in terms of absolute measurement it is nothing.

Film thickness is a function of both viscosity AND density and measured in microns. 0.05 to 7 microns at the ring interface depending on the point in the pressure cycle.

HSTS absolute viscosity of a 0W20 or 5W20 is 2.6 cp and only 2.9 cp for a 0W30 to 10W40. However 15W40 and heavier W40 oils have a minimum 3.7 cp. That's a 50% increase in film thickness. That's a track day oil. Splitting hairs over 0.3 cp? And drawing blood over it? Really?

I run 0W20 winter, 0W30 summer. My motor is spec for 5W30. My AFM is up and running by design before my bulk oil temperature reaches 150F (65C). I do run a cooler thermostat and my oil cooler is the OEM radiator tank so I do cheat the vis a bit. More for oxidation resistance than film thickness. Remember I said film thickness depends also on density? Well density is temperature dependent. Cooling your oil even 20 F will create a film thickness about 1 SAE grade different.

Here is what is going to happen running 5W30 instead of 0W20. Your AFM will be on less and that will use a bit more fuel. It will take longer in terms of miles and time to get the AFM active as you heat up the oil and that will use a bit of fuel. The act of heating from a higher initial cold viscosity will use a bit more fuel. You will have a bit more wear cushion on hot summer days. On long hauls where you stay hot for several tanks that second and third tank will give about the same economy regardless 20 or 30 weight.

Guys worry about the 2 cSt at 212 F and it's effect on the hydraulics for AMF and VVT but don't give a second thought to the 2,000 - 5,000 cSt difference at cold start and early warm up.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Grumpy Bear

mookdoc6 · November 27, 2019

Grumps,

This is probably spot on.

Here is what is going to happen running 5W30 instead of 0W20. Your AFM will be on less and that will use a bit more fuel. It will take longer in terms of miles and time to get the AFM active as you heat up the oil and that will use a bit of fuel. The act of heating from a higher initial cold viscosity will use a bit more fuel. You will have a bit more wear cushion on hot summer days. On long hauls where you stay hot for several tanks that second and third tank will give about the same economy regardless 20 or 30 weight

I will have updated data shortly @ 100k for 0W-20 on my engine. The peanut gallery will have to make up their minds, but I expect it to be Earth Shattering. Stay tuned..........

2kwik4u · November 27, 2019

@Grumpy Bear Thanks for a more complete picture of how viscosity works.

Do you have a formula available for calculating film thickness vs viscosity at a given temperature? I'm certain it's not as simple as a single formula, but would be interesting to plot that data for given interfaces and see how the film thickness is affected.

Also, any comments on the validity of putting an oil cooler inline with the filter? i was |..| that close to doing that on my TBSS in an attempt to keep the engine cool while towing with it. Thing blew a head gasket (probably due to previous owners rebuild capabilities), and I traded it away for my Sierra. Thought was to run a small trans fluid cooler in one of the brake ducts in the front fascia, and plumb that into an oil filter bypass fitting, and use a remote mount filter at the same time. Would have increased capacity slightly, and cooled the oil a bit along the way. The Sierra doesn't maintain nearly the high revs that the SS did, and it's a smaller engine overall, so I haven't been as worried about it, but am curious your take on the situation there.

Thanks again!