For You Electric Vehicle Fans

Grumpy Bear · December 15, 2021

10 hours ago, Donstar said:

They look a lot better for '22, imo. and hopefully they have resolved the fire issue. I will likely wait for a full-sized SUV or pickup EV. So far, the Mach e4 is tempting but not if I have to give up my truck. I still have to convince Mrs. Donstar that she needs a new car but her 15 year old Yaris is barely broken in according to her.

You married well

Donstar · December 15, 2021

12 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

You married well

No arguing this point. She does not share my level of interest in cars, trucks and motorcycles so purchase proposals have to go through incredible scrutiny. A new vehicle has to really excite me before I go before before her court. If she agrees I have sufficient evidence to proceed, she will likely offer a plea bargain. If I choose to continue presenting my case, concessions and community service will be conditions of any further proceedings. Villainizing her impeccably clean, ultra low mileage, and paid for Toyota is not effective. Deviating from her color preferences will have my case thrown out of court. You may remember an old cartoon with a picture of car color separating dealerships. The caption of, "Honey let's look at the blue cars," wasn't funny....

KARNUT · December 15, 2021

My wife generally keeps her cars at least 5 years. Some get passed to the next generation. The 11 Genesis is exceptional I even love it. Mainly because it’s a full size that drives like a sports car and it’s quick. I on the other hand not so much. I’m doing better, I think. The Avalanche is approaching 2 years. I thought I was going to get the Genesis as my own when my mother in law quit driving and gave her the CRV. But noooo, my wife says here dear looky at your new ride. But you can keep your Avalanche. Shiiiiiii$. At least there’s that.

Edited December 15, 2021 by KARNUT

diyer2 · December 16, 2021

I didn't do any research on this article to confirm any info but found it interesting. Long read but informative.

Electric vehicles and what it takes to power them. Whether you are a proponent of electric vehicles or not, this is very interesting information.

article by Bruce Haedrich.

When I saw the title of this lecture, especially with the picture of the scantily clad model, I couldn’t resist attending. The packed auditorium was abuzz with questions about the address; nobody seemed to know what to expect. The only hint was a large aluminum block sitting on a sturdy table on the stage.

When the crowd settled down, a scholarly-looking man walked out and put his hand on the shiny block, “Good evening,” he said, “I am here to introduce NMC532-X,” and he patted the block, “we call him NM for short,” and the man smiled proudly.

“NM is a typical electric vehicle (EV) car battery in every way except one; we programmed him to send signals of the internal movements of his electrons when charging, discharging, and in several other conditions. We wanted to know what it feels like to be a battery. We don’t know how it happened, but NM began to talk after we downloaded the program.

Despite this ability, we put him in a car for a year and then asked him if he’d like to do presentations about batteries. He readily agreed on the condition he could say whatever he wanted. We thought that was fine, and so, without further ado, I’ll turn the floor over to NM,” the man turned and walked off the stage.

“Good evening,” NM said. He had a slightly affected accent, and when he spoke, he lit up in different colors. “That cheeky woman on the marquee was my idea,” he said.

“Were she not there, along with ‘naked’ in the title, I’d likely be speaking to an empty auditorium! I also had them add ‘shocking’ because it’s a favorite word amongst us batteries.” He flashed a light blue color as he laughed.

“Sorry,” NM giggled then continued, “three days ago, at the start of my last lecture, three people walked out. I suppose they were disappointed there would be no dancing girls.

But here is what I noticed about them. One was wearing a battery-powered hearing aid, one tapped on his battery-powered cell phone as he left, and a third got into his car, which would not start without a battery. So, I’d like you to think about your day for a moment; how many batteries do you rely on?”

He paused for a full minute which gave us time to count our batteries. Then he went on, “Now, it is not elementary to ask, ‘what is a battery?’ I think Tesla said it best when they called us Energy Storage Systems. That’s important. We do not make electricity – we store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So, to say an EV is a zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid. Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the EVs on the road are coal-powered, n’est-ce pas?”

He flashed blue again. “Einstein’s formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.”

He lit up red when he said that, and I sensed he was smiling. Then he continued in blue and orange. “Mr. Elkay introduced me as NMC532. If I were the battery from your computer mouse, Elkay would introduce me as double-A, if from your cell phone as CR2032, and so on. We batteries all have the same name depending on our design. By the way, the ‘X’ in my name stands for ‘experimental.’

There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single use. The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals.

Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium.

The United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. California is the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you throw your small, used batteries in the trash, here is what happens to them.

All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a flashlight or two from an old, ruptured battery. When a battery runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds inside the battery’s metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in the landfill.

In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do not yet know how to recycle batteries like me or care to dispose of single-use ones properly.

But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at batteries and windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call environmentally destructive embedded costs.”

NM got redder as he spoke. “Everything manufactured has two costs associated with it, embedded costs and operating costs. I will explain embedded costs using a can of baked beans as my subject.

In this scenario, baked beans are on sale, so you jump in your car and head for the grocery store. Sure enough, there they are on the shelf for $1.75 a can. As you head to the checkout, you begin to think about the embedded costs in the can of beans.

The first cost is the diesel fuel the farmer used to plow the field, till the ground, harvest the beans, and transport them to the food processor. Not only is his diesel fuel an embedded cost, so are the costs to build the tractors, combines, and trucks. In addition, the farmer might use a nitrogen fertilizer made from natural gas.

Next is the energy costs of cooking the beans, heating the building, transporting the workers, and paying for the vast amounts of electricity used to run the plant. The steel can holding the beans is also an embedded cost. Making the steel can requires mining taconite, shipping it by boat, extracting the iron, placing it in a coal-fired blast furnace, and adding carbon. Then it’s back on another truck to take the beans to the grocery store. Finally, add in the cost of the gasoline for your car.

But wait - can you guess one of the highest but rarely acknowledged embedded costs?” NM said, then gave us about thirty seconds to make our guesses. Then he flashed his lights and said, “It’s the depreciation on the 5000-pound car you used to transport one pound of canned beans!”

NM took on a golden glow, and I thought he might have winked. He said, “But that can of beans is nothing compared to me! I am hundreds of times more complicated. My embedded costs not only come in the form of energy use; they come as environmental destruction, pollution, disease, child labor, and the inability to be recycled.”

He paused, “I weigh one thousand pounds, and as you see, I am about the size of a travel trunk.” NM’s lights showed he was serious. “I contain twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside me are 6,831 individual lithium-ion cells.

It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each auto battery like me, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth’s crust for just - one - battery.”

He let that one sink in, then added, “I mentioned disease and child labor a moment ago. Here’s why. Sixty-eight percent of the world’s cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls, and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?”

NM’s red and orange light made it look like he was on fire. “Finally,” he said, “I’d like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this is the ultimate in being ‘green,’ but it is not! This construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.

The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, copper-indium-gallium-diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which also are highly toxic. Silicon dust is a hazard to the workers, and the panels cannot be recycled.

Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earths neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be replaced. We cannot recycle used blades.

Sadly, both solar arrays and windmills kill birds, bats, sea life, and migratory insects.

NM lights dimmed, and he quietly said, “There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look beyond the myth of zero emissions. I predict EVs and windmills will be abandoned once the embedded environmental costs of making and replacing them become apparent. I’m trying to do my part with these lectures.

Thank you for your attention, good night, and good luck.” NM’s lights went out, and he was quiet, like a regular battery.

Environmentaists are so shallow it is truly embarassing!

I wonder how many people made it all the way to the end if this piece? And, how many will still buy their 1^st EV or buy their 2^nd and 3^rd one?

Donstar · December 16, 2021

Good article! It would be effective to have it next to an equal presentation from a bucket of crude. I suspect we'd end up with a debate over the "lesser of two evils". I find it logical that if we don't make a dramatic change, extreme weather events will increase in impact and frequency. If I didn't care or believe in the impact of gas powered vehicles on our environment, I would still understand that doing nothing will not help those suffering from extreme fire or flooding events in my province. My "bias" finds me favoring articles in support of lowering carbon emissions. The damage created by the switch is real and needs to be top of mind as we transition to EV's. As an aside, the can of beans story above is a powerful part of how we can all change. A couple of days ago, my wife was doing some Christmas baking and found herself without raisins. I started for the door and she said, "You shouldn't make a special trip for a single item!" She wasn't saying this to reduce my chore load! She simply turned the page in her cookbook and baked something else. This saved my 5K truck firing up and driving to the.....

Edited December 16, 2021 by Donstar

KARNUT · December 16, 2021

Sooner or later people will figure out this is just another way for certain people to control the public and their money. I’m all for limiting pollution. That of course is man made. The US has come a long ways in doing that. Crude oil is a natural product that we are burning more cleanly. Then there’s natural gas. Windmills, solar panels are the opposite. An eye sore and inefficient. I wonder. How many people who just love those electric cars have solar panels or windmills in there yard? How about aerobic septic? How about rain collection devices for water? 2 minute showers? Or share a tub of water? How much did you donate to Kentucky relief? To your church? I do what matters within reason. Man made global warming. Not buying it.

Grumpy Bear · December 16, 2021

5 hours ago, Donstar said:

Good article! It would be effective to have it next to an equal presentation from a bucket of crude.

Interesting indeed.

Know the vehicle with the lowest impact, imbedded or otherwise? The one that is not built. The technology exist that would double the life of everything man makes cutting environmental impact by half. Lowering and enforcing speed limits.

But wait.....what impact would that have on greed? Greed by it's very nature is not a creature that looses its grip.

Donstar · December 17, 2021

You're correct. Giving up my current vehicle will simply add another to the planet. Any reduction in the impact of such a purchase is long term. Reducing speed limits is also a gas saver. We just got off a month long 30L gas limit. This also proved to significantly lower demand. There is a correlation between the amount of change and our willingness to comply. The 30L (8 gal) gas ration found store shelves empty of gas cans and some very angry drivers. My truck was kept on 3/4 to full for the duration. The savings for me was my reducing/combining trips. Others wasted a lot of fuel trying to work around the system! There will be many with stockpiles of full gas cans stored next to their Kirkland TP. Any change is met with by those of us finding fault. I'm still bitter about the four on the floor thingy! Our transition to EV's is a world wide event and gaining significant traction and cannot be blamed on local politics. Looking to see if a car has a tailpipe is getting to be a real thing!

Grumpy Bear · December 17, 2021

4 hours ago, Donstar said:

There is a correlation between the amount of change and our willingness to comply. The 30L (8 gal) gas ration found store shelves empty of gas cans and some very angry drivers.

For my parents and grandparents this would have not even raised an eyebrow living as they did through two world wars and several depressions. Ration stamps? Mother kept trunk loads of them. Fact was they never used all the ones they were given. Why? Because it meant someone more needy would suffer. I smile as who is more needy than one on ration stamps? For me....I was raised by these people so....yea....not a concern for me either. I use it when I have it; shrug when I don't. Had my fair share of cornflakes in the meatloaf and wearing my older bothers clothing. Working cleaning the toilet for school lunch.

My children were taught to play a good game of 'last out", but grandchildren,...that's a different story. History, my history and those before me left no print on them. Sad. Their generation run the current show now.......

I'm not letting go of my truck because it is better; but because the alternative isn't.

Watch the commercials carefully. Marketing genius. The say, "Zero TAILPIPE emissions"! It's that cleaver? The truth wrapped in deceit. They know exactly what they are saying and exactly who they are telling this to. :nonod:

Edited December 17, 2021 by Grumpy Bear

OnTheReel · December 17, 2021

5 hours ago, Donstar said:

You're correct. Giving up my current vehicle will simply add another to the planet. Any reduction in the impact of such a purchase is long term.

We simply don’t know the long term impact on switching to EVs. So far everyone is just doing what feels good on the front end, ignoring the serious environmental concerns on the back end. Cart before the horse. It’s all been said before. Power. Grid. Batteries. Tech.

Know anyone using a 10 year old laptop? 10 year old cell phone? No, because the batteries are long dead and so is the tech driving the device. When you make cars into computers, the same thing will happen. They won’t be worth the investment to keep going when the big bad battery bites the dust.

Gets even worse if you barely own the thing anyway. No independent repair and subscriptions for everything. See Toyota wants you to pay monthly to use the key fob you paid for when you bought the car?!? Just an RF communication directly from the remote and the car, but they want to be in-between it now.

I guess it’s easy to understand why the automakers are excited for the future. Consumers probably shouldn’t be.

Grumpy Bear · December 18, 2021

6 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

We simply don’t know the long term impact on switching to EVs. So far everyone is just doing what feels good on the front end, ignoring the serious environmental concerns on the back end. Cart before the horse. It’s all been said before. Power. Grid. Batteries. Tech.

Know anyone using a 10 year old laptop? 10 year old cell phone? No, because the batteries are long dead and so is the tech driving the device. When you make cars into computers, the same thing will happen. They won’t be worth the investment to keep going when the big bad battery bites the dust.

Gets even worse if you barely own the thing anyway. No independent repair and subscriptions for everything. See Toyota wants you to pay monthly to use the key fob you paid for when you bought the car?!? Just an RF communication directly from the remote and the car, but they want to be in-between it now.

I guess it’s easy to understand why the automakers are excited for the future. Consumers probably shouldn’t be.

Greed's belly is never full

Guppy up kids!

customboss · December 18, 2021

This is a discussion about buggy whips vs space ships.

KARNUT · December 18, 2021

Someone said something about greed. it’s really about supply versus demand. I’m not afraid to try anything new. My first car was a RX3. I had a Oldsmobile diesel, a non turbo 7.3 later adding a bank’s turbo. A redesigned 94 Ram. A trailblazer ss to name a few. If it suits me and is reasonable I’m in. I’m reading quick charging is around 20 minutes. So drive 300 miles stop for lunch another 200 I’m done for the day. So there’re very close. Price, performance, charging time. I don’t see much happening with power plants yet. Reminds me of my hometown. Build they will come. Oh shi$ what about the roads?

OnTheReel · December 18, 2021

1 hour ago, KARNUT said:

Someone said something about greed. it’s really about supply versus demand. I’m not afraid to try anything new. My first car was a RX3. I had a Oldsmobile diesel, a non turbo 7.3 later adding a bank’s turbo. A redesigned 94 Ram. A trailblazer ss to name a few. If it suits me and is reasonable I’m in. I’m reading quick charging is around 20 minutes. So drive 300 miles stop for lunch another 200 I’m done for the day. So there’re very close. Price, performance, charging time. I don’t see much happening with power plants yet. Reminds me of my hometown. Build they will come. Oh shi$ what about the roads?

This does strike me as greed. And/or utter stupidity. Pay to use a fob you already paid for. Not like it’s a phone app or anything.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/12/toyota-owners-have-to-pay-8-mo-to-keep-using-their-key-fob-for-remote-start/

garagerog · December 18, 2021

The rapid push towards EV's is only one of the multitude of reasons the current US administration needs a non-partisan cabinet level Secretary of Unintended Consequences with the power to overrule capricious and inane policy.