Towing trouble

[Jon A]

1 hour ago, 2017HD said:

Jon - I think that you are the one who is biased. The equalizer video showed....

No, you're missing the point.  The point was they were testing airbags for doing something they are not intended to do.  Like pulling out a shock dyno and "testing" a shock against a spring.  The spring will lose.  Damping is not what they are intended to do.  They're setting the part up for failure by measuring something they aren't intended to do.  In addition to making the part look bad, in misinforms the public about their function (purposely).

 

If they wanted to do a test that would actually be interesting and relevant, they could do something like equipping one truck with airbags and the other with a WDH set up the way so many users like (returning 100% or more of the weight to the front axle), run them around a skidpad and see which one jackknifes first.  Of course, the truck with the WDH would lose that one, so don't hold your breath.  WDH's do some good things and are very useful, even needed for many setups.  But they do have their downsides, especially when over adjusted, that many want to sweep under the rug.

 

 

2 hours ago, 2017HD said:

I have tried towing a similar trailer to the OP with a Tahoe - it did the same thing.

 

Yes, even softer rear suspension and shorter wheelbase makes it even tougher to deal with on those vehicles.  And it's harder to add "full sized" airbags with coil springs--most kits using smaller bags inside the coils, which have some disadvantages.

 

2 hours ago, 2017HD said:

 I do agree that there is a time and place for air bags - esp when the load is in the bed (not on the bumper)

 

But it's the opposite.  When the weight is on the bumper, it places an even higher load on the rear axle for a given weight--and when the weight is actually in the bed, the dynamic forces that cause all the problems (because they originate behind the bumper) that WDHs were invented to fix cause little to no issues.  A 1/2 ton with no modifications at all will handle a 5th wheel with a 1200 lb pin weight dramatically better in every way than it will a bumper pull trailer with 1200 lb tongue weight--even with a WDH.  No comparison.

[Jon A]

On 6/4/2018 at 7:11 PM, 2017HD said:

then there are also Timbrins that do a similar function for those applications - do you have an opinion on them?

On the Timbrens:  They're cheap, easy to install and very simple to use.  Many people do like them and find them very helpful.  They aren't my first choice as they lack the ability to do so many things that airbags can--mainly adjust spring rate for correct load at any ride height, maintain suspension travel when loaded and won't provide nearly as good a ride (loaded or unloaded).  I think Sumo Springs are probably a better option for most people who don't want air bags for some reason--they'll act more like an air spring (less progressive spring rate increase) and should give a better ride for most loads--of course the ride will vary a lot with different loads for either of them and they're available in different sizes so it's not quite fair to say one will always be better than the other.  But with airbags, the adjustability allows them to be optimum for whatever you're doing (including no load at all) so they're the clear choice for me.

 

On 6/4/2018 at 7:15 AM, Donstar said:

I don't recommend purchasing unnecessary components to add muscle to your truck.  Your truck already has the ability and you just need to harness it properly! ..... A reputable RV dealership will have the staff and equipment to ensure a pleasant towing experience.

 

Keep in mind, your trailer is quite small compared with the trailers many others are towing with the same platform.  Unless your setup is really screwed up you are unlikely to have any sort of issues--issues that aren't just possible, but actually difficult to avoid with a much larger trailer.

 

But for the sake of curiosity, have you gone over some scales or taken measurements to try and determine how the dealer set things up?  If you found it was set up at odds with GM guidelines (as many with larger trailers who rely on the WDH to "fix everything" do), how would that change your thinking/recommendations?

[bdbake01]

31 minutes ago, Jon A said:

On the Timbrens:  They're cheap, easy to install and very simple to use.  Many people do like them and find them very helpful.  They aren't my first choice as they lack the ability to do so many things that airbags can--mainly adjust spring rate for correct load at any ride height, maintain suspension travel when loaded and won't provide nearly as good a ride (loaded or unloaded).  I think Sumo Springs are probably a better option for most people who don't want air bags for some reason--they'll act more like an air spring (less progressive spring rate increase) and should give a better ride for most loads--of course the ride will vary a lot with different loads for either of them and they're available in different sizes so it's not quite fair to say one will always be better than the other.  But with airbags, the adjustability allows them to be optimum for whatever you're doing (including no load at all) so they're the clear choice for me.

 

 

Keep in mind, your trailer is quite small compared with the trailers many others are towing with the same platform.  Unless your setup is really screwed up you are unlikely to have any sort of issues--issues that aren't just possible, but actually difficult to avoid with a much larger trailer.

 

But for the sake of curiosity, have you gone over some scales or taken measurements to try and determine how the dealer set things up?  If you found it was set up at odds with GM guidelines (as many with larger trailers who rely on the WDH to "fix everything" do), how would that change your thinking/recommendations?

Some of us have state certified scales at their disposal.  

 

And some have ACTUALLY pulled their fully loaded trailer across said scales to make sure their rig is operating within manufacturer’s guidelines. One axle at a time. 

 

Just sayin. 

 

But yeah go ahead and put all of that weight on the bag in the rear ?

[Jon A]

8 minutes ago, bdbake01 said:

Some of us have state certified scales at their disposal..... And some have ACTUALLY pulled their fully loaded trailer across said scales to make sure their rig is operating within manufacturer’s guidelines. One axle at a time.

Then why did you refuse to answer the question of how much weight you are transferring with the WDH?  One axle at a time seems like a big waste of time to me--8 separate measurements to properly set up a WDH instead of three?  I personally like weighing the whole thing at once on Cat Scales (which are certified BTW).

 

13 minutes ago, bdbake01 said:

But yeah go ahead and put all of that weight on the bag in the rear ?

 

Exactly where does GM recommend removing "all that weight" from the rear with a WDH? 

 

[Donstar]

11 hours ago, Jon A said:

Keep in mind, your trailer is quite small compared with the trailers many others are towing with the same platform.  Unless your setup is really screwed up you are unlikely to have any sort of issues--issues that aren't just possible, but actually difficult to avoid with a much larger trailer.

I agree that my trailer setup is pretty mild when compared to the bigger trailers.  I do know that my relatively small trailer could provide me with a miserable ride if it wasn't setup properly.  I base this on my experience pulling box trailers with an ordinary ball hitch.  I do have a concern with aftermarket aids to strengthen factory suspension.  If your truck is rated to pull your weight of trailer, then it should do it safely and comfortably.  I don't have a problem with aftermarket add-ons as a personal preference.  I had the broken leaf springs replaced on my last truck with a much heavier set.  I loved the firmer ride but I didn't treat my truck like it was more capable.  I am cautioning OP against buying any suspension aids until he gets his combination properly setup.  

[busydaddy]

I’ve referred back to this old post on an RV forum to get my weights. Truck stops have scales available. I copied and pasted the post below:

First, the TV and TT should be loaded approximately as they would be for camping.

Second, the weight distribution system should be adjusted as it normally would be for towing.

Then, I would do the following:

Weighing #1 -- TT attached and Weight Distribution Activated
Let Front Axle Load be "FA1"
Let Rear Axle Load be "RA1"
Let TT Axles Load be "TT1"

Then, while in same position on scales, take
Weighing #2 -- TT attached and Weight Distribution Not Activated (WD bars unloaded, but hanging in place)
Let Front Axle Load be "FA2"
Let Rear Axle Load be "RA2"
Let TT Axles Load be "TT2"

Then, drive off scales and drop TT. Return to scales and take
Weighing #3 -- TV only -- TT Not Attached
Let Front Axle Load be "FA3"
Let Rear Axle Load be "RA3"

From the above values, you can calculate:

TV weight = FA3 + RA3

Gross Combined Weight = (FA1 + RA1 + TT1)
{should also be equal to (FA2 + RA2 + TT2) if scale weights are correct}

TT Weight = Gross Combined Weight - TV Weight

Tongue Weight = (FA2 + RA2) - (FA3 + RA3)

Load Transferred to TT Axles
when WD System is Activated = TT1 - TT2

This procedure should get you on and off the scales fairly quickly and still provide all the data you need.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jon A]

6 hours ago, Donstar said:

I do have a concern with aftermarket aids to strengthen factory suspension.... I am cautioning OP against buying any suspension aids ....

What exactly is your "concern," and upon what is it based?  If he throws on a set of airbags, helper springs, Sumo Springs, etc, what are you "concerned" might happen and why do you think it would?

 

I understand some people have great faith in their factory vehicle and couldn't conceive of turning a wrench on it for any reason--fully satisfied to "get by" with the bare minimum required to survive.  That doesn't mean it's the best advice for everybody, especially people specifically asking how they can improve their vehicle for the task at hand.

 

Enthusiasts of all stripes, be they racers or offroaders or anything in between typically recognize the fact that the factory did not specifically set up their vehicle to be optimum for what they're trying to do as that setup would would annoy other users (stiffer rear springs would make people complain about ride quality, larger offroad tires and more ground clearance will harm mileage, racing level brake pads on sporty cars would make people complain about dust, squealing and cold performance, etc).  With very few exceptions, vehicles are set up to do everything their users might commonly do "OK" and not be really good at any specific task, except for those very specialized exceptions.  Telling people they shouldn't make such modifications to make their vehicle better at a specific task because "the factory designed it to barely survive doing that task well enough they can rate it for that task" is the mindset of a non-enthusiast who doesn't know or care how his vehicle works or why he might want to make it better. 

 

It is very easy to set up a vehicle to be better at a specific task than it was when the factory built it, be that offroading, lapping a racetrack or yes, even towing.  When you do it for towing, you make it SAFER and much more enjoyable to drive while you are towing.  Discouraging people from being SAFER and having a better time when towing is really hard to understand the reasoning behind.

 

7 hours ago, Donstar said:

If your truck is rated to pull your weight of trailer, then it should do it safely and comfortably.

 

You are misunderstanding what the rating means.  9700 is the maximum possible, if everything else is perfect (which obviously includes a trailer that is easy to pull).  It is not a guarantee that any trailer on the planet under 9700 can be pulled by his truck "safely and comfortably."  Some trailers are harder to handle than others.  A particular dump trailer full of gravel weighing 9700 might be quite easy to pull and control, making it very safe while a 40+ foot travel trailer weighing 9700 can be a nightmare to pull for the same truck.  If GM broke the ratings down by trailer type and length, a long bumper pull TT would likely be rated at a much lower max weight for a particular truck.  At some point you need to use your own brain and think for yourself.

 

There's a thread in the towing section right now where a guy followed your advice perfectly--he stayed within his limits and had the dealer set up the WDH.  He had a nightmare of a time.  What is your further advice to him after your initial advice failed?  "Live with it?"

[Donstar]

37 minutes ago, Jon A said:

There's a thread in the towing section right now where a guy followed your advice perfectly--he stayed within his limits and had the dealer set up the WDH.  He had a nightmare of a time.  What is your further advice to him after your initial advice failed?  "Live with it?"

I hope that anyone reading this forum uses information posted to help inform their own decision.  In the example where the member followed "my" advice perfectly I would suggest that if weights are correct then the dealer did not set it up properly.  I have add-ons to my truck to personalize it to better meet my needs and don't have any problems with modifications.  I do believe that if you have to add suspension components to meet your towing needs then you have the wrong tow vehicle or trailer.  Your example of a 9700 lb trailer would be very difficult to configure to a 1500.no matter the physical size.  Keep providing your information, experiences and opinions.  I will too.  They all help others to make their own decisions.

[Jon A]

2 hours ago, Donstar said:

I do believe that if you have to add suspension components to meet your towing needs then you have the wrong tow vehicle or trailer. 

Of course that's technically correct.  If you're barely scraping by with the bare minimum amount of safety and comfort, you don't have to do anything.  As long as you're one step better than a complete train wreck waiting to happen, you don't have to do anything.   Just don't confuse that with there being no room for improvement and available extra margin of safety that many really enjoy having.

 

3 hours ago, Donstar said:

Your example of a 9700 lb trailer would be very difficult to configure to a 1500.no matter the physical size.

That's simply false.  How do you figure?  A truck rated to tow 9700 lbs can easily tow a trailer that weighs 9700 lbs, and do it quite well.  There are millions of trailers out there it will do just fine with.  Of course, there are millions of others the truck will struggle with, badly.  I don't think you're understanding the distinction.

 

2 hours ago, Donstar said:

I would suggest that if weights are correct....

What weights are correct?  What GM requires?  Or what many who agree with your first statement will advise people to do (violating GM requirements)?  And that's really the point behind all of this.  The people who agree with your statement above the loudest will often advise others to set up the WDH in a way that makes them less safe.  Surely many simply don't know any better, others seem to be willfully ignorant, purposely refusing to listen even when the reasons why are clearly explained.  They're sticklers for everything GM says on the door or in the owner's manual...except for one thing. 

[Donstar]

1 hour ago, Jon A said:

Of course that's technically correct.  If you're barely scraping by with the bare minimum amount of safety and comfort, you don't have to do anything.  As long as you're one step better than a complete train wreck waiting to happen, you don't have to do anything.   Just don't confuse that with there being no room for improvement and available extra margin of safety that many really enjoy having.

 

That's simply false.  How do you figure?  A truck rated to tow 9700 lbs can easily tow a trailer that weighs 9700 lbs, and do it quite well.  There are millions of trailers out there it will do just fine with.  Of course, there are millions of others the truck will struggle with, badly.  I don't think you're understanding the distinction.

 

What weights are correct?  What GM requires?  Or what many who agree with your first statement will advise people to do (violating GM requirements)?  And that's really the point behind all of this.  The people who agree with your statement above the loudest will often advise others to set up the WDH in a way that makes them less safe.  Surely many simply don't know any better, others seem to be willfully ignorant, purposely refusing to listen even when the reasons why are clearly explained.  They're sticklers for everything GM says on the door or in the owner's manual...except for one thing. 

I am getting the feeling you like to argue.  :-)

[DONWT15]

Interesting discussion, but I suspect it makes things more confusing for the OP.

His set up is out of balance.

That needs to be straightened out first before discussing suspension changes.

The symptoms he describes are typical of too much weight being transferred to the back of the trailer and front of the truck.

This will unload the rear suspension of the tow vehicle and make it feel loose.

 

[Jon A]

4 hours ago, Donstar said:

I am getting the feeling you like to argue.  :-)

Actually, I much prefer to teach.  To explain how things work, why they work the way they do, the physics behind it that makes them work that way and how that matters to people in the real world application they're asking about.

 

It's just really hard to do that when clowns in the classroom are blurting out things akin to "2+2=5."  And when you ask the clowns to explain exactly why they may think that, to explain the reasoning behind it, they refuse to answer the question.  Only to blurt out a short time later, "5+5=11."  You can lead a horse to water....

 

 

[Roscopcoletrain]

On 6/5/2018 at 1:20 AM, Jon A said:

No, you're missing the point.  The point was they were testing airbags for doing something they are not intended to do.  Like pulling out a shock dyno and "testing" a shock against a spring.  The spring will lose.  Damping is not what they are intended to do.  They're setting the part up for failure by measuring something they aren't intended to do.  In addition to making the part look bad, in misinforms the public about their function (purposely).

 

If they wanted to do a test that would actually be interesting and relevant, they could do something like equipping one truck with airbags and the other with a WDH set up the way so many users like (returning 100% or more of the weight to the front axle), run them around a skidpad and see which one jackknifes first.  Of course, the truck with the WDH would lose that one, so don't hold your breath.  WDH's do some good things and are very useful, even needed for many setups.  But they do have their downsides, especially when over adjusted, that many want to sweep under the rug.

 

 

But wasn't that the point of the video? To show that they're intended for different things. Some folks seem to think air bags will solve all. And the point of the video was to show that no, they don't replace the use of a WDH, and like you said, they're not intended to do so. But some people think they are, so thats why they did the video. 

[Donstar]

Jon A, I'm sure that you like to teach. As teachers we can measure our success by the responses from our students.  Instead of blaming my students for poor test results, I use such data to reflect on my delivery.  The student that says 2+2=5 may have more to offer me than those that say what I want to hear.  

OP, you provide the dry weight of your trailer and estimated weight of cargo.  I think going to a scale may be quite enlightening as you may be closer to your maximum than you have predicted.  Also check your driver's door jamb for your maximum payload for your particular truck. I find that this figure isn't very generous when adding tongue weight to passengers, cargo, canopies, box liner, etc.  

 

[DONWT15]

30 minutes ago, Donstar said:

Also check your driver's door jamb for your maximum payload for your particular truck. I find that this figure isn't very generous when adding tongue weight to passengers, cargo, canopies, box liner, etc.  

^This