Towing trouble

[Jon A]

7 hours ago, Donstar said:

The student that says 2+2=5 may have more to offer me than those that say what I want to hear.

In a classroom setting, much less a professional setting, a student is unable to throw crap at the wall and then disappear.  When they say something like that, you engage them, the issue is discussed, explained and if you're really good you eventually have the student prove himself wrong (now that he has a better understanding of the issue) in front of the class so that everybody knows what the correct answer is--and just as importantly, why it is correct.

 

How many specific questions have I asked you or bdbake01, just in this thread, that you have refused to answer?  Throw crap at the wall and disappear.  Avoid discussion of the issue because you might be embarrassed.  That offers nothing to the readers other than confusion because the discussion never happens and people are wondering who is correct.  One guy says this, the other guy says that, and I think I like this guy better so he is probably right...maybe 2+2 does equal 5?

 

8 hours ago, Roscopcoletrain said:

 

But wasn't that the point of the video? To show that they're intended for different things....

No, there was no effort to discuss the different things they do.  They put it in a context of "Which system is better?  Which system should you choose?" as if they are intended to do the same thing.  No acknowledgement that since they do different things, making it a choice between them as if it's one or the other, is dumb, and that choosing both is going to be better than either alone (because airbags do a lot of things WDH's don't do).

 

And while there are plenty of issues with the way they did the scaling, the big thing is they have the WDH adjusted to transfer nearly double the weight GM specifies (the more weight transferred in that "test," the better, right?)  There was no acknowledgement of the safety trade offs one is making when he removes that much weight from the rear axle.

[bdbake01]

On 6/10/2018 at 12:42 AM, Jon A said:

Then why did you refuse to answer the question of how much weight you are transferring with the WDH?  One axle at a time seems like a big waste of time to me--8 separate measurements to properly set up a WDH instead of three?  I personally like weighing the whole thing at once on Cat Scales (which are certified BTW).

I don't recall refusing to answer anything.  Been busy a couple of days, and I was kinda hoping you'd get it out of your system so I didn't have to continue explaining how it works.  I was wrong.

 

I didn't weigh each axle (never said I did, but why do you care if I have the time?).  Truck weighs right at 6k with my usual gear.  The trailer and load I pull most often is the TA on an 18' open, full steel bed with a good bit of equipment up front.  Car is very near 4k when I have my usual load of accessories, chairs, supplied, etc. in her.  Yes, she's a big girl.  And she's a Pontiac, so the weight distribution is like 90/10 or something stupid like that.  It's not good.  Trailer is 1,850 with around another 150 near the front (jack, tools, battery, winch, yadda) so call it 2k.  

 

Car on the trailer is 6k.  With the car in the usual position, tongue weight is on the high side, about 1,175 (granted this varies, doesn't take a lot of movement of the car on the trailer to move this around).  This wasn't calculated, I weighed the tongue.  

 

With everything hitched up, no WD but with bars attached, the whole rig came in super close to 12k.  Rear sag was substantial, but nothing I'd be afraid to drive under normal circumstances.  It's the abnormal ones that would have concerned me, not to mention just the overall comfort in piloting the rig.  

 

Front axle lift was ~320lb, def more than I wanted.  Admittedly I didn't bother measuring the rear axle after this since I knew it would be within range once I was done with the front axle.  I was shooting for near 50% FALR (in this case, about two standard issue jockeys), but mindful of the rear lift which is a critical point.  Restored 150lb to the front, which resulted in 190lb going back to the trailer axle pair.  Based on math, rear loading should be near ~835lbs.  The rear was still slightly sagged below level, but nothing like it was.  Plenty of travel left.  Forgot to mention, I usually have nothing or extremely little in the bed when I'm towing like this.  Certainly nothing of any appreciable weight.    

 

Rides fantastically.  Bumps/dips/sags/maneuvers, I really don't think it can tow any better overall.  Even the wife noted how nice it felt. 

 

For those interested, the same exercise with airbags would yield very nearly the exact same before/after even with a highly accurate scale.  If your scale has a 20lb resolution, it'll be the same.  That should tell you all you need to know when asking if airbags will help.  

 

On 6/10/2018 at 12:42 AM, Jon A said:

Exactly where does GM recommend removing "all that weight" from the rear with a WDH? 

I've never even ONCE suggested that ANYONE remove "all that weight" from the rear.  In fact, I emphasized very early on in this thread the inherent danger in doing so.  I did not say that, and I don't appreciate your attempt to put words in my mouth to try and make your case.

 

14 hours ago, Jon A said:

You can lead a horse to water....

But man it's hard to drown one!

 

10 hours ago, Donstar said:

Jon A, I'm sure that you like to teach. As teachers we can measure our success by the responses from our students.  Instead of blaming my students for poor test results, I use such data to reflect on my delivery.  The student that says 2+2=5 may have more to offer me than those that say what I want to hear.  

Very nicely said Donstar!  We are constantly monitoring not only our performance in the classroom itself, but the day to day performance of our students in the workforce.  Given normalizing factors, if our students aren't improving or performing well, it reflects on the house of instruction first and foremost.  

 

Jon A, I'm going to skim the rest to see if I accidentally missed responding to a question.  No guarantees, but please, make no assumptions as to my intent.

 

 

[bdbake01]

1 hour ago, Jon A said:

In a classroom setting, much less a professional setting, a student is unable to throw crap at the wall and then disappear.  When they say something like that, you engage them, the issue is discussed, explained and if you're really good you eventually have the student prove himself wrong (now that he has a better understanding of the issue) in front of the class so that everybody knows what the correct answer is--and just as importantly, why it is correct.

You have the student "prove himself wrong" in front of the class?????  WTH man???  This is a truly horrific method of teaching!!!  So lemme get this straight.  If you're teaching, and a student asks a question or offers an alternative solution (like Canada resides north of the mainland USA), then you would what?  Berate them until they agreed with you, and then publicly shame them so that everyone else doesn't get any bright ideas???

 

WTH?

[bdbake01]

Could someone point out where "air bag" or "Timbren" even exists in the GM trailering guide?

 

Asking for a friend.  

[Jon A]

9 hours ago, bdbake01 said:

You have the student "prove himself wrong" in front of the class?????  WTH man???  This is a truly horrific method of teaching!!! 

I think you're having Sam Kinison flashbacks.  It doesn't have to be that way at all.  In math and most science and Engineering subjects, solving problems in front of the class is how it's done.  If there's a particular problem one or more people are getting the wrong answer for while claiming they're doing it correctly, going over that problem with their "help" is the best way to find where they went wrong and that information benefits the whole class.  It can be done with smiles all around.

 

9 hours ago, bdbake01 said:

Could someone point out where "air bag" or "Timbren" even exists in the GM trailering guide?

 

No truck manufacturer is going to start giving different ratings of their trucks for aftermarket products.  The best hint you can take is the extra 400 lbs of payload given to the NHT's due to slightly stiffer rear springs.

 

9 hours ago, bdbake01 said:

I didn't weigh each axle (never said I did, but why do you care if I have the time?). 

 

That came from this:

On 6/9/2018 at 9:22 PM, bdbake01 said:

And some have ACTUALLY pulled their fully loaded trailer across said scales to make sure their rig is operating within manufacturer’s guidelines. One axle at a time.

Apparently it wasn't clear what you meant.  I was simply indicating it's much faster and easier to weigh all three at once.

 

9 hours ago, bdbake01 said:

For those interested, the same exercise with airbags would yield very nearly the exact same before/after even with a highly accurate scale.  If your scale has a 20lb resolution, it'll be the same.  That should tell you all you need to know when asking if airbags will help.  

Again, [Broken Record Voice] "help" with what?  Distribute weight?  Of course not, that's not what they are for.  Help the truck ride and handle better, help the rear "handle the weight" (feel more solid and confidence inspiring, less being "thrown around" by the weight of the trailer)?  Yes, they will "help" with that.

 

9 hours ago, bdbake01 said:

I've never even ONCE suggested that ANYONE remove "all that weight" from the rear.  In fact, I emphasized very early on in this thread the inherent danger in doing so.  I did not say that, and I don't appreciate your attempt to put words in my mouth to try and make your case.

Again, those words come right from your mouth.  If you meant something different, try and be more clear:

On 6/4/2018 at 3:32 PM, bdbake01 said:

Of course if you use a properly adjusted WDH, then you don't add a large amount of weight to the rear.  That's kinda how it works. 

And I think I've found the disconnect.  You are way underestimating how much weight you have on the rear.

 

10 hours ago, bdbake01 said:

tongue weight is on the high side, about 1,175.... Restored 150lb to the front, which resulted in 190lb going back to the trailer axle pair.  Based on math, rear loading should be near ~835lbs.

Too bad you haven't weighed the rear axle.  Your calculations are missing a step.  It's not a gooseneck.  Your rear coupler will be around 53" behind your rear wheels.  Adding 1175 lbs of tongue weight at the hitch will add about 1580 lbs to the rear axle.  A WDH at 50% will reduce that to around 1260. 

 

I think the big disagreement was based around your contention that increasing the rear spring rate is only something you should worry about if you're adding a lot of weight to the rear.  Well, you are.   1260 lbs is a lot of weight on the rear axle of a 1/2 ton.  Just putting that much weight in the bed and driving around will make you feel it, a lot, and when that weight is due to a trailer being connected it's a bigger deal as the trailer throws all sorts of dynamic forces at the rear of the truck that a load in the bed won't.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think your setup is just fine and I'm not surprised the truck handles it with no issue at all.  But longer box-style trailers, especially camping trailers, even if they don't weigh much more are much harder to handle.  And that can cause those who want their trucks to remain stock, to keep cranking on the WDH looking for improvement without being aware of the safety issues of doing so.

 

[BigBadSierra]

So I'm towing a 2006 Jayco Eagle 288RLS  Unloaded weight is 6450 my loaded weight is 6950 so lets say 7000lbs running

 

This one has a Dry hitch of 705.

 

Just  using a standard Reese WDH rated at 10,000lbs with 1000LBS tong max. I adjust by one chain link on the bars when loaded same as I did with my last trailer.

 

Once the trailer is on the back of the truck it's dropped just over one inch. My truck is leveled so the nose looks high in my pictures but it's almost dead on the empty height.

 

So the trailer is not lifting the my front end I have no float well the same float I have with the leveling kit.

 

No sway, No continues bounce.  Bounce recovery is two bounces at the most. 

 

The only difference in towing, I feel the extra weight and burn more fuel.

 

Trans temp is at 198F same as my last trailer

 

So you are towing a 2 foot longer trailer and you do have almost 190 lbs more on the hitch so I have a bit easier of a setup on my truck.

 

I also load a bulk of my heavy items tables,Lawn chairs,portable waste tank right over the trailer axles. Then I put a moderate  amount in the front storage as you do need some weight there.

 

The two heavest items in my nose is the portable BBQ and the dining tent.

 

The Eagle on truck.

 

This is my old trailer at 5000LBS loaded the Eagles squat in the back is the same as the Surveyor put on my truck.

 

[DONWT15]

Sounds like an excellent set up.

 

[TXGREEK]

Hello,
I could not find the proper section for this topic so, moderators, please move it to the appropriate place.  Thanks.
 
I have a 2014 Sierra Denali crew cab with the 5.3L, 22" rims, and it has 4 wheel drive.  Its rated towing capacity is 9700lbs.  
 
I also have a 2014 Keystone Hideout 28bhs.  Its dry weight is 6,784lbs.  I currently have an estimated 500lbs of additional cargo for camping.  The tongue weight is listed as 895lbs.  

The truck has the load leveling hitch, sway controller, and tow package/brake controller.  
 
In absolutely optimum conditions the combo tows just fine.  However, on normal roads, like we all see every day, there is a ridiculous bonce that goes on while driving.  Its enough to make one sick.  The trailer also seem to move my truck around a lot.  The rear end of the truck seems to move side to side quite a bit.  It doesn't squat much when connected to the trailer, but you can tell.  And then when there is the least bit of wind, just forget it.  Its all over the place.  Going faster than 50mph doesn't seem safe.  
 
I love my truck, and I love my trailer.  So, I would like to keep them both.  So...
 
I am looking for advice on how to make it better for the truck I have.  The trailer weight is well under truck capacity.  Airbags on the rear?  Different tires?  Any advice would be appreciated.  
 
And please, I already understand that I may need a different truck and/or trailer.  But in the meantime, Id like to make this work while driving at least the speed limit.  Thanks.  

Went through the exact same thing, though I sold the trailer and truck I do recommend airbags, they help tremendously. I had the in cabin remote with dual lit gauges. You can add and release air as your driving and the best thing was that I didn’t have to get out of the comfort of a dry cool cabin to do it. Make sure to get a great warranty from wherever you get it from cause they have been known to leak or bad compressors.


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[Jon A]

On 6/12/2018 at 6:54 AM, BigBadSierra said:

Once the trailer is on the back of the truck it's dropped just over one inch. My truck is leveled so the nose looks high in my pictures but it's almost dead on the empty height.

 

I'm glad your setup is riding well for you.  Just be aware that by transferring roughly double the weight to the front that GM specifies, you are making some compromises regarding safety.