2.7 Turbo 4 Fan Club

[Grumpy Bear]

Just a guess but as the boiling point of ethanol is 173 F and bulk oil temperatures exceed that by a wide margin in any vehicle driven at least an hour any working CCV/PCV system should remove that fuel in its entirety, correct? 

[customboss]

9 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Just a guess but as the boiling point of ethanol is 173 F and bulk oil temperatures exceed that by a wide margin in any vehicle driven at least an hour any working CCV/PCV system should remove that fuel in its entirety, correct? 

In general I would agree that evaporation would have an impact, combustion would do most the work considering the oxygen component of ethanol.  

As you know the BP of gasoline ranges from ~ 100 - 400F so when the two fuels are mixed it affects both the ethanol component too. 

When testing deposits of spark and compression engines ethanol acted more like a cooling agent, octane booster, and solvent, even in vapor phase. 

[Grumpy Bear]

43 minutes ago, customboss said:

In general I would agree that evaporation would have an impact, combustion would do most the work considering the oxygen component of ethanol.  

As you know the BP of gasoline ranges from ~ 100 - 400F so when the two fuels are mixed it affects both the ethanol component too. 

When testing deposits of spark and compression engines ethanol acted more like a cooling agent, octane booster, and solvent, even in vapor phase. 

 

Law of Partial Pressure. Yes... How silly of me to forget such a basic law. 

 

All said and done then more ethanol reduces fuel dilution and cleans the combustion chamber????

[customboss]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Law of Partial Pressure. Yes... How silly of me to forget such a basic law. 

 

All said and done then more ethanol reduces fuel dilution and cleans the combustion chamber????

Essentially correct! 

[Slvrado]

Im really tempted to not even mix and do a full tank of e85 and see how it goes. The engine light on the dash might be annoying after awhile. Even worse I wonder if the ECU will compensate too much and put the truck into limp mode.

 

 

[customboss]

18 minutes ago, Slvrado said:

Im really tempted to not even mix and do a full tank of e85 and see how it goes. The engine light on the dash might be annoying after awhile. Even worse I wonder if the ECU will compensate too much and put the truck into limp mode.

 

 

I’ve never seen limp mode but the light is irritating. 

[Grumpy Bear]

36 minutes ago, customboss said:

I’ve never seen limp mode but the light is irritating. 

 

Idea tossed out here. Injectors have a physical limit. It's why the Flex Fuel models had larger injectors/pumps/regulators or some combination of them all. At some point the just run out volume if the alcohol content it beyond their ability and the motor at THAT point will indeed go lean. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Grumpy Bear

[Slvrado]

59 minutes ago, customboss said:

I’ve never seen limp mode but the light is irritating. 

Have you tried a full tank of E85?

 

 

[customboss]

1 hour ago, Slvrado said:

Have you tried a full tank of E85?

 

 

Not in the  2022 Trail Boss.  The VW GTI pictured ran E85- E100 all the time.  I have run E85 at full strength in many non modded or ethanol spec'd cars and trucks with no issues all the way back to the 90's.  

[customboss]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Idea tossed out here. Injectors have a physical limit. It's why the Flex Fuel models had larger injectors/pumps/regulators or some combination of them all. At some point the just run out volume if the alcohol content it beyond their ability and the motor at THAT point will indeed go lean. 

Thats true but it would be better to design the engine from ground up to burn ethanol so you optimize the head, pistons etc for mechanical energy benefit. 

 

Trying to make gasoline spec'd engines with modified fueling idealize ethanol fuels is only a part of the equation.  But thats reality. 

[CoolHandWayne]

Got my first oil report back today. 15k on the truck and 4800 on this oil. Oil was Motul 8100. Looks good. I was worried about the fuel content after hearing that might be a problem with these. But no concerns here. I used amsoil after draining the Motul to do a comparison. Probably will go 6k or so on the amsoil. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by CoolHandWayne

[Grumpy Bear]

5 hours ago, customboss said:

Thats true but it would be better to design the engine from ground up to burn ethanol so you optimize the head, pistons etc for mechanical energy benefit. 

 

Trying to make gasoline spec'd engines with modified fueling idealize ethanol fuels is only a part of the equation.  But thats reality. 

 

I don't know about from the ground up. Flame speed is a bit quicker for alcohol and the detonation resistance is greater. So...less timing and more compression pressure BMEP (different than compression ratio). Could a fresh sheet design with a mechanical compression ration be of value? Perhaps but VVT and the ECU handle that within the programed alcohol content limits of the motor. VVT/VVL are there for more than passive EGR. Guys run Pikes Peak with alcohol mechanical ratios on gasoline that would frag a sea level motor in example and case in point. IVC angle is paramount.  

 

Know why the Brits don't have skyscrapers? They can't figure out a way to complicate a hammer.

No need of over complicate something that really is that simple. 

 

*********************

 

True about partial pressures. That said separating hydrocarbons and alcohols by boiling point in mixtures IS the art of distillation. Call me crazy but it was sort of my life's work. If the oil temp is above 173 F the alcohol is coming out as are most of the hydrocarbons with a boiling point less than the bulk oil temperature. The crankcase is an atmospheric column without a tray or reflux stream. Meaning the 'cut' for the hydrocarbons is not perfect but it is the cut. The alcohol cut however is a finite cut. When GC fuels are shown it is primarily those whose boing point is between the bulk oil temperature and the fuels 'end point'. It isn't maybe. It just is. If not then refineries are a myth and my life was a dream. 

 

 

 

 

[customboss]

13 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

I don't know about from the ground up. Flame speed is a bit quicker for alcohol and the detonation resistance is greater. So...less timing and more compression pressure BMEP (different than compression ratio). Could a fresh sheet design with a mechanical compression ration be of value? Perhaps but VVT and the ECU handle that within the programed alcohol content limits of the motor. VVT/VVL are there for more than passive EGR. Guys run Pikes Peak with alcohol mechanical ratios on gasoline that would frag a sea level motor in example and case in point. IVC angle is paramount.  

 

Know why the Brits don't have skyscrapers? They can't figure out a way to complicate a hammer.

No need of over complicate something that really is that simple. 

 

*********************

 

True about partial pressures. That said separating hydrocarbons and alcohols by boiling point in mixtures IS the art of distillation. Call me crazy but it was sort of my life's work. If the oil temp is above 173 F the alcohol is coming out as are most of the hydrocarbons with a boiling point less than the bulk oil temperature. The crankcase is an atmospheric column without a tray or reflux stream. Meaning the 'cut' for the hydrocarbons is not perfect but it is the cut. The alcohol cut however is a finite cut. When GC fuels are shown it is primarily those whose boing point is between the bulk oil temperature and the fuels 'end point'. It isn't maybe. It just is. If not then refineries are a myth and my life was a dream. 

 

 

 

 

At one of my old gigs at Cummins we purpose built a Turbo 4 2.8L E85 engine I have shared links for here and we went deep into all you mention and it worked better than using a diesel or gasoline design with ECM and injectors changes. 

 

I agree with everything else you shared and your refining background is solid! 

 

I have been testing Maverik E15 but caught them calling it 87 octane here at 7800' msl in Alamosa CO when in fact it was a 86. See data sheet and note who's blending it for them.  Its never less than 12.5% thus min 86. I did talk to Maverik tech folks about that.  The product runs well with minimal timing pull.  It burns very clean. Maverik :Phillips 66 831978 - SDS E15.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

[customboss]

20 hours ago, CoolHandWayne said:

Got my first oil report back today. 15k on the truck and 4800 on this oil. Oil was Motul 8100. Looks good. I was worried about the fuel content after hearing that might be a problem with these. But no concerns here. I used amsoil after draining the Motul to do a comparison. Probably will go 6k or so on the amsoil. 

Wish they would do FTIR and KF water,GC fuels. I guarantee you the fuels dilution is at least 1% or higher. 

[Slvrado]

Okay, 15 gallons of e85 and 4 gallons of 87. Truck runs smooth, but the CEL did come on as expected.