Towing at the limit

[Grumpy Bear]

Did I see the Batman signal go up?

 

 

HEAT....and towing at the maximum makes allot of it. Some base oils will oxidize to the point of uselessness in as little as 20 minutes. Others will take it for hours. Add package has nothing to do with nothing once the oil is cooked to a cinder. Antioxidant packages have a finite limit. They slow it but don't stop it from happening. Regardless of what the oil can take there are seals and gaskets that given in much earlier. Every base oil has an oxidation initiation temperature and once reached every 20 F increase in bulk oil temp cuts its usefulness in HALF. Get it hot enough and the main bearings will literally melt. Then the owner drinks the Kool-Aid and leaves that oil in his prize. He'd change it if he found 1% antifreeze in it but will leave it in the motor after pulling several hours with his bulk temperatures over 250 F!! 

 

The only commercially available Mobil 1 product that still contains a PAO as it's primary base is sold only in Europe. Mobil 1 is primarily a Group III with a good dose of paraffinic Group II solvent dewaxed base oil to lower the aniline point enough to hold any additive whatsoever. Don't even need a SDS to verify this. It's DEXOS1Gen2 licensed oil and that license does not allow the use of Esters or PAG's to suppress aniline points as a base oil and it takes more than 15% to suppress it far enough to be effective. FACT. Group III+ bases have the HIGHEST aniline point of ALL base oil groups. GTL's are also in the that group. (Pennzoil Platinum Plus).

 

Your bulk oil temperature will run a minimum of 20F over the water temperature and with current GM thermostats that are regulating at something over 210 F with fans running wild puts bulk temps over 230F and bearing temperatures hovering around 310F.  Now couple that with an oil whose HSTS viscosity of a 20W is well under 3 cSt and crap will happen fast. Mobil claims 500F capability. My tee shirt is bullet "resistant". Claims are just advertising. 

 

If you are going to tow like a dummy then use a COOLER, use a PAO/POE based oil and change it like you own Exxon Mobil. Even then expect more than your share of issues. You just made it to the rear main seal. 

 

Comparing Mobil 1 to any PAO/POE or PAO/Diester oil is like comparing a BB gun to a Winchester .45/.70.  

 

Rat540 does not live or TEST in any world a motor actually lives in.....for very long. He is a total EP/Wear additives guy which is actually great as long as heat is in check but means nothing if you coke the base. His "pressure" test test only the EP package. He has ZERO method for testing a 'virgin" base. He has no access to everyone's proprietary chemistry. 

 

I used his long highly held QSUD in a motor for 80K miles changing every 5K. 66% of the GM OLM value. Rings stuck. Gum and varnish and sludge. Motor cooked the oil but boy did the additive package and wear metals look good in UOA's. We freed them with a few solvent washes and now run COSTCO Kirkland 5W30 on 2,500 OCI's and she sings like my grandmothers canary. Darn near the same additive package as Mobil 1.  A fraction of the price. 

 

You want to run that stuff on the edge? Change it like you change your socks. 

 

Time for my blood pressure meds' 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Grumpy Bear

[TheLawnGuy]

I'm sure it's been answered but you'll definitely want at least a 3/4 ton. Most of the time a truck will pull more than it's rated but the issues arise with stopping and maneuvering. Bite the bullet and get a bigger truck, no sense in playing Russian roulette with an overloaded truck.

[diyer2]

I'm not trying to start an oil debate. And no need to get turn to foul language.

According to the testing Rat performed in your link, Amsoil rated number 4 and 5 for wear. That's my point. 

On 4/10/2021 at 6:16 AM, diyer2 said:

No way off the shelf oil of any brand can compare to a 100% full synthetic oil like Amsoil IMO.

Just sayin.

Done.

[Black02Silverado]

21 hours ago, ic3man5 said:

Its a fact and its backed by lab analysis and independent research. Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one but doesn't mean they are right. Lets not start another oil war conversation here with nothing to back it; its boring and off-topic.

 

This is a good read if you are interested: https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

Rank 6 vs 60. They are both great oils, AMSOIL is only needed if you are going to do extended drain intervals or excessive mileage per year. AMSOIL 0w20 OE < Mobil 1 0W20 < AMSOIL 0W20 Signature

Just an FYI but this is old information.  Oil formulas are getting changed regularly and improved.  It would be nice to see him do this same study on current formulas.

[ic3man5]

20 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Did I see the Batman signal go up?

 

 

HEAT....and towing at the maximum makes allot of it. Some base oils will oxidize to the point of uselessness in as little as 20 minutes. Others will take it for hours. Add package has nothing to do with nothing once the oil is cooked to a cinder. Antioxidant packages have a finite limit. They slow it but don't stop it from happening. Regardless of what the oil can take there are seals and gaskets that given in much earlier. Every base oil has an oxidation initiation temperature and once reached every 20 F increase in bulk oil temp cuts its usefulness in HALF. Get it hot enough and the main bearings will literally melt. Then the owner drinks the Kool-Aid and leaves that oil in his prize. He'd change it if he found 1% antifreeze in it but will leave it in the motor after pulling several hours with his bulk temperatures over 250 F!! 

I agree, A heat soaked engine and transmission is a disaster for oil as I explained in a previous post. I'd argue this is more true for the transmission since the oil change interval is so short in the engine. Most (good) oils won't start to heavy degrade until hitting 250-290F, 200-250F range just means you need to increase your change interval.

 

Quote

The only commercially available Mobil 1 product that still contains a PAO as it's primary base is sold only in Europe. Mobil 1 is primarily a Group III with a good dose of paraffinic Group II solvent dewaxed base oil to lower the aniline point enough to hold any additive whatsoever. Don't even need a SDS to verify this. It's DEXOS1Gen2 licensed oil and that license does not allow the use of Esters or PAG's to suppress aniline points as a base oil and it takes more than 15% to suppress it far enough to be effective. FACT. Group III+ bases have the HIGHEST aniline point of ALL base oil groups. GTL's are also in the that group. (Pennzoil Platinum Plus).

Base isn't as important as you make it out to be, base is only ~80% of the oil. The other 20% matters a lot and that is where you see the differences in test results. I would compare base to only one test out of many kind of like how RAT540 only does one test.

Quote

 

Your bulk oil temperature will run a minimum of 20F over the water temperature and with current GM thermostats that are regulating at something over 210 F with fans running wild puts bulk temps over 230F and bearing temperatures hovering around 310F.  Now couple that with an oil whose HSTS viscosity of a 20W is well under 3 cSt and crap will happen fast. Mobil claims 500F capability. My tee shirt is bullet "resistant". Claims are just advertising. 

Coolant temperature doesn't correlate to engine oil temperature like that. Biggest factors include energy output of the engine (which translates fairly linearly to RPM - Higher the RPM the more heat) and ambient temperatures.

 

I have never seen a grade 20 oil have anything close or near 3 cSt, it wouldn't be able to called that; hell even 5 weight oil doesn't get that low. Viscosity isn't as important as oil pressure when it comes to protection. Viscosity correlates to oil pressure and too low of a Viscosity means low oil pressures which won't provide proper lubrication at higher RPMs but that is outside the scope of this.

 

Quote

 

If you are going to tow like a dummy then use a COOLER, use a PAO/POE based oil and change it like you own Exxon Mobil. Even then expect more than your share of issues. You just made it to the rear main seal. 

I will never argue against added coolers and was my original point for the OP (there are some here that argued against it ).

Quote

 

Comparing Mobil 1 to any PAO/POE or PAO/Diester oil is like comparing a BB gun to a Winchester .45/.70.  

Comparing brand to brand or base to base isn't beneficial in the least. Only thing that matters is the specifications of the oil and real world testing.

Quote

 

Rat540 does not live or TEST in any world a motor actually lives in.....for very long. He is a total EP/Wear additives guy which is actually great as long as heat is in check but means nothing if you coke the base. His "pressure" test test only the EP package. He has ZERO method for testing a 'virgin" base. He has no access to everyone's proprietary chemistry. 

Synthetic tests are for sure not always useful in real world testing but it at least can give you better starting point; theoretically higher friction protection should mean less metal/wear damage when pushing the oil over its limits. His testing doesn't need access to the proprietary chemistry because he is only testing the end result. I only provided it as a reference and a starting point for research for the person I was responding to because more than likely they haven't done much research AFAIK.

 

Quote

 

I used his long highly held QSUD in a motor for 80K miles changing every 5K. 66% of the GM OLM value. Rings stuck. Gum and varnish and sludge. Motor cooked the oil but boy did the additive package and wear metals look good in UOA's. We freed them with a few solvent washes and now run COSTCO Kirkland 5W30 on 2,500 OCI's and she sings like my grandmothers canary. Darn near the same additive package as Mobil 1.  A fraction of the price. 

Obviously its almost impossible to tell how it exactly failed but sludge is a property of the oil cooling down too quickly which he doesn't test; Its possible the sludge lowered oil flow and cooked the oil right before the failure, which would explain the UOA being good prior. I only take UOAs as a general guide, I don't believe they will ever catch quick failures and they have many problems also.

Quote

 

You want to run that stuff on the edge? Change it like you change your socks. 

  

Time for my blood pressure meds' 

 

 

 

 

I heard you on the blood pressure (Have a 7 week old currently and just moved into a new house). Don't rule out the 0w20 Mobil 1 AFE / Extended as its actually not bad; The prior Mobil 1 stuff is over priced trash (AMSOIL OE stuff is on the same level).

 

The transmission temperature needs to be lowered since its so fragile to wear metals in the oil and the TCC will fail because of it. Many argue 170F is ideal transmission temperature but with all the tuning I've done with this transmission I'd say 140F is the sweat spot. When the clutches get hot enough they will just burn off the oil and not have any cooling while that is going on; GM's crap programming of the TCC is setup for a smooth ride and abuses that component; its also what tends to fail first when people start hopping up the engine. GM claims the transmission can handle the power but the component in-between the engine and transmission is weak.

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by ic3man5

[ic3man5]

43 minutes ago, Black02Silverado said:

Just an FYI but this is old information.  Oil formulas are getting changed regularly and improved.  It would be nice to see him do this same study on current formulas.

I agree, I almost wanted to send him in oil to test but then lost interest.

[ic3man5]

11 hours ago, diyer2 said:

I'm not trying to start an oil debate. And no need to get turn to foul language.

According to the testing Rat performed in your link, Amsoil rated number 4 and 5 for wear. That's my point. 

Just sayin.

Done.

Didn't intend for it to be foul; I just like the saying and I usually say it with a smile on my face. Your original point was there was no comparison and that simply isn't true; that was simply just one of many factors that need to be factored. Comparing brand to brand isn't beneficial, you need to look at product to product.

[Grumpy Bear]

19 minutes ago, ic3man5 said:

I agree,

 

You should have stopped there. I can't even count the volume of 'Are you kidding me' points in this reply. 

 

31 minutes ago, ic3man5 said:

I agree, A heat soaked engine and transmission is a disaster for oil as I explained in a previous post. I'd argue this is more true for the transmission since the oil change interval is so short in the engine. Most (good) oils won't start to heavy degrade until hitting 250-290F, 200-250F range just means you need to increase your change interval.

Let's pick just one. Why? OMG... Oil last longer in the transmission because it is not exposed to combustion gasses, ring blowby. Not because is runs cooler. Converter temperature can and does run 100 F higher than the pan temperature when it is unlocked such as when towing. With a pan temperature of 240 F which is a number easy to reach add a hundred to that. Doesn't even go into warning mode (TCM) until 265 F and limp a short while later. Motor oil temperatures at the main bearings runs 75 hotter than the pan. Both are toast before a warning is posted. Thank you OEM's. 

 

Something you don't know about me. I don't guess. I measure and report. I have 40 years in oil/gas/chemical and about a quarter of that in R & D. My equipment is ****** full of sensors I monitor. Under light load as when driving the double nickel down an Illinois highway oil temperature indeed runs 20 F over water temperature. Higher as speed and/or rpm increase. Yes the spread get higher as the abuse increases but there IS a correlation. The oil in my Harley runs 100 F over air temperature no matter what load I have on it. About 100 to 175 F lower than a stock bike. 

 

Don't have a clue where that information is coming from but it's flat wrong. 

 

Group III and Group III+ will tolerate about the same heat as a Alkybenzene Refrigerant Oil 

 

Of the top of my head. AMSOIL, Red Line HP and MPT 30K contain ZERO mineral oil as a base OR as a carrier for there additive package. ALL DEXOS1Gen2 oils are Group III/III+ PLUS a healthy slug of Group II solvent dewaxed paraffinic base PLUS 15-20% 'other' mineral base oils as the additive carrier. As noted earlier aniline point demands it. SO DOES THE DEXOS LICENSE. 

 

The idea that the base has nothing to do with anything is ludicrous. I spent most of my adult life employed in oil/gas/ chemical. I don't guess. 

 

The idea that a Falex test or any variation of it tells you something useful  for a street motor is equally foolish. EVERY sample fails. The difference is in degree of failure. What no one ever asks is what percentage of the failure point does a real world motor operate at? And the answer is a fraction of the worst oil of any reputable major blender. I don't care if oil A fails at 5,000 psi and another a 20,000 psi if the most my equipment ever sees is less than 1,000 psi. A real world rod bearing load at maximum BMEP. That test is a variation of the Shell 4 ball. It is a marketing tool. NO ONE that uses it ever gives you a real world reference point. There is a reason for that. 

 

Tell ya what. I've been playing Whack O' Mole on this topic for about five years now. It's getting old...really, really old. 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

11 hours ago, ic3man5 said:

I have never seen a grade 20 oil have anything close or near 3 cSt, it wouldn't be able to called that; hell even 5 weight oil doesn't get that low.

Let's pick another one. Did you read what I wrote? Here I'll quote it for you

 

On 4/11/2021 at 12:26 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

Now couple that with an oil whose HSTS viscosity of a 20W is well under 3 cSt and crap will happen fast.

Yes I fat fingered the spelling..... HTHS. The minimum spec for a 20W is 2.6 cSt. A 30W is also under 3 cSt..there is no maximum as long as it is spec at the 100 C point. In the lower chart MPT 30K 5W30 has an HTHS of a 60W at 150C and yet still in spec at 100C.  

 

Before you try to pick the meat of a bone make sure you have first the right bone  

 

 

 

Part of the allure of a Group IV or Group V base is that they do naturally what it takes a boat load of additives to do in a Group II+/III/III+ and one of the first additives to give up the ghost are the VI improvers. Something many PAO/POE oils don't even have in them. 

 

I can do this all day. 

[KARNUT]

I’ve been running equipment, trucks, cars to limit almost 50 years. 40 of those years built and sold equipment that pushes the limits of their engines. The only reason we chose to go with an oil like Amsoil was to extend the drains. They choose us provided the testing. Really as I think back engine failure was never a problem. On any oil. Transmission and hydraulics. That’s a different story. The useful lives were extended. Hydraulics especially. Too much yaba yaba on oils. Engine failure do to oils not seeing it. There’s probably 15 pieces of eq turn over in my brothers ( my old) shops a week. Engine failures I can count on one hand in 40 years. That includes the trucks that pull them. 3/4 ton up to heavy haulers.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pokismoki]

just wanted to add to the confusion... HAHAHAHA

 

 

[ic3man5]

12 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

You should have stopped there. I can't even count the volume of 'Are you kidding me' points in this reply. 

Not an argument here.

12 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Let's pick just one. Why? OMG... Oil last longer in the transmission because it is not exposed to combustion gasses, ring blowby. Not because is runs cooler. Converter temperature can and does run 100 F higher than the pan temperature when it is unlocked such as when towing. With a pan temperature of 240 F which is a number easy to reach add a hundred to that. Doesn't even go into warning mode (TCM) until 265 F and limp a short while later. Motor oil temperatures at the main bearings runs 75 hotter than the pan. Both are toast before a warning is posted. Thank you OEM's. 

Ring blowby is NOT the main reason oil performance degrades and change intervals need to be increased. Thermal breakdown is the number one factor, in both directions. You seem to not have a very good grasp on how thermals correlate to energy output; just because you raise the base temperature when its acting as a coolant doesn't mean the upper temperature linearly scales the same. You keep on using the main bearing temperature as your examples here but I have let to see an L83/L86 (or previous gen) let the main bearing go due to temperature; Hell they are running 1000hp to these engines and that still isn't the case. In fact its such a non-issue its a waste of time even arguing oil in the engine. Even if you are using absolute worse garbage you can find (within specifications) you still won't see this as a failure point.

 

12 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Something you don't know about me. I don't guess. I measure and report. I have 40 years in oil/gas/chemical and about a quarter of that in R & D. My equipment is ****** full of sensors I monitor. Under light load as when driving the double nickel down an Illinois highway oil temperature indeed runs 20 F over water temperature. Higher as speed and/or rpm increase. Yes the spread get higher as the abuse increases but there IS a correlation. The oil in my Harley runs 100 F over air temperature no matter what load I have on it. About 100 to 175 F lower than a stock bike. 

Again, coolant temperatures don't correlate to oil temperatures; Comparing oil temperature here to ambient temperature is a non-argument here.

 

40 years experience shows as you are still stuck on base matters the most, this simply isn't as big of a factor today as it was 10-20 years ago.

 

12 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Don't have a clue where that information is coming from but it's flat wrong. 

 

Group III and Group III+ will tolerate about the same heat as a Alkybenzene Refrigerant Oil 

 

Of the top of my head. AMSOIL, Red Line HP and MPT 30K contain ZERO mineral oil as a base OR as a carrier for there additive package. ALL DEXOS1Gen2 oils are Group III/III+ PLUS a healthy slug of Group II solvent dewaxed paraffinic base PLUS 15-20% 'other' mineral base oils as the additive carrier. As noted earlier aniline point demands it. SO DOES THE DEXOS LICENSE. 

 

The idea that the base has nothing to do with anything is ludicrous. I spent most of my adult life employed in oil/gas/ chemical. I don't guess. 

... 80% base 20% additives; base isn't as big as an influencer compared to 10-20 years ago. As you mention below trying to base decisions off of one test or property is foolish; I'd argue the same here for putting as much importance on base properties.

12 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

The idea that a Falex test or any variation of it tells you something useful  for a street motor is equally foolish. EVERY sample fails. The difference is in degree of failure. What no one ever asks is what percentage of the failure point does a real world motor operate at? And the answer is a fraction of the worst oil of any reputable major blender. I don't care if oil A fails at 5,000 psi and another a 20,000 psi if the most my equipment ever sees is less than 1,000 psi. A real world rod bearing load at maximum BMEP. That test is a variation of the Shell 4 ball. It is a marketing tool. NO ONE that uses it ever gives you a real world reference point. There is a reason for that. 

 

Tell ya what. I've been playing Whack O' Mole on this topic for about five years now. It's getting old...really, really old. 

 

 

 

 

Engine oil was never a conversation here besides some side conversation between me and another. If you are going to talk oil make it about the Transmission as that is the #1 failure point when thermals are abused.

[Grumpy Bear]

Oil Degradation in an Engine. Oil is degraded in an engine due to a combination of high operating temperatures near the combustion chamber (thermal oxidation) and interaction with the combustion gases that pass from the combustion chamber, through the rings, to the crankcase (blow-by gasses) [1., 2.].

 

The Degradation of Lubricants in Gasoline Engines ...

https://www.sciencedirect.com › science › article › pii

 

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/475/oil-breakdown

 

The first one will cost you the price of the PDF the second is free. 

 

 

[YukonXL04]

Is this an oil thread or a towing thread?

Isn't there already an oil thread where yall can go hash this out?

[Grumpy Bear]

21 hours ago, ic3man5 said:

40 years experience shows as you are still stuck on base matters the most, this simply isn't as big of a factor today as it was 10-20 years ago.

That is  YOUR conclusion...not mine. I did not say that. Now take out the word I never said "MOST" and you've got it. 

 

21 hours ago, ic3man5 said:

Again, coolant temperatures don't correlate to oil temperatures; Comparing oil temperature here to ambient temperature is a non-argument here.

 

Reading comprehension is not your long suit. In a water cooled motor the 'coolant' is pretty much constant once up to temperature AND when operated within the the design bounds of the system. Air cooled motors however operate with AIR as the coolant and oil temperature does follow air temperature for 'ANY GIVEN LOAD" and again within the limits of the systems ability to reject heat. I offered the example to show oil temperature is INFLUENCED by coolant temperature not that it is pegged to it. 

 

21 hours ago, ic3man5 said:

Engine oil was never a conversation here besides some side conversation between me and another. If you are going to talk oil make it about the Transmission as that is the #1 failure point when thermals are abused.

Now until YOU brought it up. 

21 hours ago, ic3man5 said:

You keep on using the main bearing temperature as your examples here but I have let to see an L83/L86 (or previous gen) let the main bearing go due to temperature;

Again this is YOUR conclusion, not mine. All I said was that temperatures are HIGHER in the bearings and that getting it above the melting point of the material used in bearing 'can' melt them. But it was offered more to show that pan temperatures are the average temperature and there are points in the motor where temperatures are higher. High enough to cause thermal breakdown. THEN offered that same sort of comparison in the transmission where converter temperatures are higher than pan temperatures WHEN the converter is operation unlocked and at maximum torque multiplication.