5w30 oil

[Grumpy Bear]

On 6/19/2024 at 12:20 AM, TrailBossMike said:

-With low sulphur gasoline available everywhere, TBN and TBN retention is no longer a relevant value.  Don't believe me?  Read the Chevron paper on TAN and TBN.

 

This one is a headshaker. I worked for Chevron Research. Read the paper. This isn't based on anything but a desire for less waste oil. Like viscosity reduction which promoted CAFE improvement while SACRIFICTING wear protection the same is true in this case. This has been studied to death and THERE IS a correlation and underpinning causation to the crossover point and increased wear. I'm not posting that research again. 

 

On 6/19/2024 at 12:20 AM, TrailBossMike said:

Better base oils produce less contamination due to less oxidation and thermal degradation, this required less dispersants and detergents (DI additives).

 

Base oil doesn't produce contamination. Combustion byproducts do.  Really?

 

But agreed, they do tend to take longer to oxidize 'all things equal'. Problem is all things are not equal. Base oil improvement INCREASED the oxidation ONSET temperature. What did the OEM's do with that advancement? Raised bulk oil and cylinder wall temperatures. Lowered ring tension. Increased blowby. Reduced CCV vent effectiveness over the life of the vehicle, orifice instead of a check valve which is not a compensative device. Increased OCI lengths. Reduced warranty miles. Lowered wear protection callouts in oil licensing. I take it you can't read tea leaves. Not required. Common sense is. 

 

Guy hanging by a rope as a window washer. Doc says to the guy, "If you don't lose a few pounds you will fall to your death". So, the Doc gives him a bigger rope.

 

What does this fellow do? Put on weight.

 

 

Guy hanging by a rope as a window washer. Doc says to the guy, "If you don't lose a few pounds you will fall to your death". So, the window washer takes his advice and loses some weight.

 

Then he buys a thinner rope to hang from.

 

 

 

[PunchT37]

Yeah. I know there are inferior parts all over today. Not just oem`s. Lifters being on top of the list. But, I`m wondering if the combo of the 0w20 oil, the hotter climates, and the stop/start is causing lifter failures. As in lack of lube, like the hemi, with it`s high location and almost horizontal lifter bores. They have cam and lifter failures just as bad or worse than these GM engines. I`m also hearing of these lifter problems with the AFM/DFM disabled. So...

[Grumpy Bear]

1 hour ago, PunchT37 said:

Yeah. I know there are inferior parts all over today. Not just oem`s. Lifters being on top of the list. But, I`m wondering if the combo of the 0w20 oil, the hotter climates, and the stop/start is causing lifter failures. As in lack of lube, like the hemi, with it`s high location and almost horizontal lifter bores. They have cam and lifter failures just as bad or worse than these GM engines. I`m also hearing of these lifter problems with the AFM/DFM disabled. So...

 

Likely all are true. Thing is, once you know you have to figure a solution. Some of us do and the OEMs are getting wise to this as well. Rumor has it that the 2025 models will no longer have a switch to defeat the auto-stop/start. They continue to elevate their encryption. They have already complicated the cooling and oiling systems or limited the available parts to cure the elevated heat. And there are fewer and fewer choices of oils on the shelves. One might think they are trying to squeeze us out of the ICE market and into electric.   

 

GM V8's as we knew them....yea.....

 

When they started using variable displacement vane pumps not only did they remove some parasitic horsepower draw, which was a good thing, but they also inadvertently (or not) LOWERED THE COOLING CAPCITY of the motor.  One of oils many functions is cooling. Lower gearing and deep overdrives lowered the water pump speeds. 

 

Hot oil is thinner oil. Then we spec a *W20, a thinner oil. Increase cooling system temperature. Add preheaters, zone cooling...do everything possible to increase operating temperature, remove lubrication and thin what lubrication there is. THEN add stop start and hybrid systems to shut off the cooling and oil supply completely. As an added bonus remove the chemistry from the oil that fights all these issues which was necessary due to lower tension rings not sealing as well for as long. (They would seal fine with better bore and ring land prep $$$) Wait, doing all of this created the issues they are trying to solve and then removing the solution? They seem amazed there are lubrication related failures.   

 

If you know the issues, you have a solution. More cooling and more viscosity in oils that are more shear stable and more heat tolerant. The API SP ultra-thin oils they are calling out are the not cutting the mustard. Bottom rung on the ladder. Picture pig crap on the bottom of your shoe. That is how much elevation above the bottom rung you get with a Dexos1Gen2 oil. Not even a full rung.

 

IF you insist on a 0W20 then look for a Dexos1Gen3, Porsche C20 CERTIFIEND oil. The Gen3 spec has a minimum HTHS of 2.9, same as an SAE *W30. The Porsche certification gets you MUCH better deposit control in a MID SAPS oil with more effective AW packages. 

 

Or be proactive. Use not just a *W30 but one with a ACEA C3 DEXOS2 certification minimum. Raises the HTHS to 3.5 and still a MID SAPS oil with better deposit control. (Mobil 1 ESP is a DEXOS2 certified oil as is Castrol 5W30 C3)   

 

dexos®2 | GM (gmdexos.com)

 

Cut OEM OLM in HALF minimum. 

 

As long as they have an oil filter you have access to an oil cooler HINT-HINT heavy haulers.

 

IMHO of course and these are only suggestions, not Gospel.  

 

 

[PunchT37]

You spend $50,000 to $100,000 on a truck just to have it belong to the manufacturer. 
 

My bad, I mean the government. 

[VicFirth]

On 6/25/2024 at 10:31 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Likely all are true. Thing is, once you know you have to figure a solution. Some of us do and the OEMs are getting wise to this as well. Rumor has it that the 2025 models will no longer have a switch to defeat the auto-stop/start. They continue to elevate their encryption. They have already complicated the cooling and oiling systems or limited the available parts to cure the elevated heat. And there are fewer and fewer choices of oils on the shelves. One might think they are trying to squeeze us out of the ICE market and into electric.   

 

GM V8's as we knew them....yea.....

 

When they started using variable displacement vane pumps not only did they remove some parasitic horsepower draw, which was a good thing, but they also inadvertently (or not) LOWERED THE COOLING CAPCITY of the motor.  One of oils many functions is cooling. Lower gearing and deep overdrives lowered the water pump speeds. 

 

Hot oil is thinner oil. Then we spec a *W20, a thinner oil. Increase cooling system temperature. Add preheaters, zone cooling...do everything possible to increase operating temperature, remove lubrication and thin what lubrication there is. THEN add stop start and hybrid systems to shut off the cooling and oil supply completely. As an added bonus remove the chemistry from the oil that fights all these issues which was necessary due to lower tension rings not sealing as well for as long. (They would seal fine with better bore and ring land prep $$$) Wait, doing all of this created the issues they are trying to solve and then removing the solution? They seem amazed there are lubrication related failures.   

 

If you know the issues, you have a solution. More cooling and more viscosity in oils that are more shear stable and more heat tolerant. The API SP ultra-thin oils they are calling out are the not cutting the mustard. Bottom rung on the ladder. Picture pig crap on the bottom of your shoe. That is how much elevation above the bottom rung you get with a Dexos1Gen2 oil. Not even a full rung.

 

IF you insist on a 0W20 then look for a Dexos1Gen3, Porsche C20 CERTIFIEND oil. The Gen3 spec has a minimum HTHS of 2.9, same as an SAE *W30. The Porsche certification gets you MUCH better deposit control in a MID SAPS oil with more effective AW packages. 

 

Or be proactive. Use not just a *W30 but one with a ACEA C3 DEXOS2 certification minimum. Raises the HTHS to 3.5 and still a MID SAPS oil with better deposit control. (Mobil 1 ESP is a DEXOS2 certified oil as is Castrol 5W30 C3)   

 

dexos®2 | GM (gmdexos.com)

 

Cut OEM OLM in HALF minimum. 

 

As long as they have an oil filter you have access to an oil cooler HINT-HINT heavy haulers.

 

IMHO of course and these are only suggestions, not Gospel.  

 

 

 

I've been thinking about trying Mobil 1 ESP 5w30.  I am using Amsoil SS now.  Was using HPL.  

 

The only thing I don't know is whether the ESP oils have the solvency of Amsoil SS, HPL or Red Line.  I don't think they do.  I suppose for 5k mile drain intervals the ESP oils should be quite good.  

 

I'm still on the fence as to whether sulphated ash contributes to intake valve deposits.  Seems a bit more complex than just that. 

Edited July 5, 2024 by VicFirth

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, VicFirth said:

 

I've been thinking about trying Mobil 1 ESP 5w30.  I am using Amsoil SS now.  Was using HPL.  

 

The only thing I don't know is whether the ESP oils have the solvency of Amsoil SS, HPL or Red Line.  I don't think they do.  I suppose for 5k mile drain intervals the ESP oils should be quite good.  

 

I'm still on the fence as to whether sulphated ash contributes to intake valve deposits.  Seems a bit more complex than just that. 

 

Mobil 1 ESP does not have any ester content... 

 

One of the other oil threads I posted a link about valve deposits and catch cans. Seems the deposits are even caused by the oil but by the coating on the valves. So, you can't stop it, but you can slow it way down with a higher solvency oil. Even a boasting point for HPL. 

 

Oil gets to the valves primarily from the valve guide. The better the oil control there the lower the deposit formation. In a healthy motor.

[VicFirth]

36 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Mobil 1 ESP does not have any ester content... 

 

One of the other oil threads I posted a link about valve deposits and catch cans. Seems the deposits are even caused by the oil but by the coating on the valves. So, you can't stop it, but you can slow it way down with a higher solvency oil. Even a boasting point for HPL. 

 

Oil gets to the valves primarily from the valve guide. The better the oil control there the lower the deposit formation. In a healthy motor.

 

Thanks Grumpy.  Mobil seems to have removed the POE that was once present in the ESP line (virgin oxidation values of 35).  Now all of the Mobil 1 line has a virgin oxidation value under 10.  So they're either using AN's or something else.  It was mentioned in a post on BITOG that Mobil is now using some unconventional ingredients in their oils where they discovered something from the cosmetics industry.  They also mentioned using biobased base oils.  

 

How secret cosmetics chemical is helping Red Bull's F1 charge (motorsport.com)

 

 

"What was a long shot a few years ago - a vision of a low ash, high temperature, low friction engine oil that incorporates bio-based components became a reality this year, thanks to the efforts of our whole team, in collaboration with Honda and Red Bull."

Edited July 5, 2024 by VicFirth

[Z45]

Discussion on oil starts around 4:00

 

Edited July 5, 2024 by elcamino

[Grumpy Bear]

1 hour ago, VicFirth said:

"What was a long shot a few years ago - a vision of a low ash, high temperature, low friction engine oil that incorporates bio-based components became a reality this year, thanks to the efforts of our whole team, in collaboration with Honda and Red Bull."

 

This is breaking news only if you are too young to remember the Isle of Man and the Norton Manx/Castrol collaboration.

[TheRiver]

On 6/20/2024 at 9:02 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

 

This one is a headshaker. I worked for Chevron Research. Read the paper. This isn't based on anything but a desire for less waste oil. Like viscosity reduction which promoted CAFE improvement while SACRIFICTING wear protection the same is true in this case. This has been studied to death and THERE IS a correlation and underpinning causation to the crossover point and increased wear. I'm not posting that research again. 

 

 

Base oil doesn't produce contamination. Combustion byproducts do.  Really?

 

But agreed, they do tend to take longer to oxidize 'all things equal'. Problem is all things are not equal. Base oil improvement INCREASED the oxidation ONSET temperature. What did the OEM's do with that advancement? Raised bulk oil and cylinder wall temperatures. Lowered ring tension. Increased blowby. Reduced CCV vent effectiveness over the life of the vehicle, orifice instead of a check valve which is not a compensative device. Increased OCI lengths. Reduced warranty miles. Lowered wear protection callouts in oil licensing. I take it you can't read tea leaves. Not required. Common sense is. 

 

Guy hanging by a rope as a window washer. Doc says to the guy, "If you don't lose a few pounds you will fall to your death". So, the Doc gives him a bigger rope.

 

What does this fellow do? Put on weight.

 

 

Guy hanging by a rope as a window washer. Doc says to the guy, "If you don't lose a few pounds you will fall to your death". So, the window washer takes his advice and loses some weight.

 

Then he buys a thinner rope to hang from.

 

 

 

 

Excellent post.

 

[TheRiver]

On 6/25/2024 at 9:31 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Likely all are true. Thing is, once you know you have to figure a solution. Some of us do and the OEMs are getting wise to this as well. Rumor has it that the 2025 models will no longer have a switch to defeat the auto-stop/start. They continue to elevate their encryption. They have already complicated the cooling and oiling systems or limited the available parts to cure the elevated heat. And there are fewer and fewer choices of oils on the shelves. One might think they are trying to squeeze us out of the ICE market and into electric.   

 

GM V8's as we knew them....yea.....

 

When they started using variable displacement vane pumps not only did they remove some parasitic horsepower draw, which was a good thing, but they also inadvertently (or not) LOWERED THE COOLING CAPCITY of the motor.  One of oils many functions is cooling. Lower gearing and deep overdrives lowered the water pump speeds. 

 

Hot oil is thinner oil. Then we spec a *W20, a thinner oil. Increase cooling system temperature. Add preheaters, zone cooling...do everything possible to increase operating temperature, remove lubrication and thin what lubrication there is. THEN add stop start and hybrid systems to shut off the cooling and oil supply completely. As an added bonus remove the chemistry from the oil that fights all these issues which was necessary due to lower tension rings not sealing as well for as long. (They would seal fine with better bore and ring land prep $$$) Wait, doing all of this created the issues they are trying to solve and then removing the solution? They seem amazed there are lubrication related failures.   

 

If you know the issues, you have a solution. More cooling and more viscosity in oils that are more shear stable and more heat tolerant. The API SP ultra-thin oils they are calling out are the not cutting the mustard. Bottom rung on the ladder. Picture pig crap on the bottom of your shoe. That is how much elevation above the bottom rung you get with a Dexos1Gen2 oil. Not even a full rung.

 

IF you insist on a 0W20 then look for a Dexos1Gen3, Porsche C20 CERTIFIEND oil. The Gen3 spec has a minimum HTHS of 2.9, same as an SAE *W30. The Porsche certification gets you MUCH better deposit control in a MID SAPS oil with more effective AW packages. 

 

Or be proactive. Use not just a *W30 but one with a ACEA C3 DEXOS2 certification minimum. Raises the HTHS to 3.5 and still a MID SAPS oil with better deposit control. (Mobil 1 ESP is a DEXOS2 certified oil as is Castrol 5W30 C3)   

 

dexos®2 | GM (gmdexos.com)

 

Cut OEM OLM in HALF minimum. 

 

As long as they have an oil filter you have access to an oil cooler HINT-HINT heavy haulers.

 

IMHO of course and these are only suggestions, not Gospel.  

 

 

 

And another!!!!

[AJMBLAZER]

So who’s actually running 5w30 in their 19+ 5.3 or 6.2?

[Gangly]

I have 130K on my engine, using 0w-20 for the entire life cycle of the engine.  I have noticed that the engine oil pressure is slightly lower than what it used to be (still within comfortable levels), which I attribute to engine age.  Being in Texas, I am comfortable with using a thicker weight oil since we never get super cold weather, and I will start using 5w-30 Full Synthetic starting on my next oil change.

[AJMBLAZER]

Let us know how it goes.

[Gangly]

2 hours ago, AJMBLAZER said:

Let us know how it goes.

Will do.