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Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

Posted
Posted
On 6/19/2024 at 12:20 AM, TrailBossMike said:

-With low sulphur gasoline available everywhere, TBN and TBN retention is no longer a relevant value.  Don't believe me?  Read the Chevron paper on TAN and TBN.

 

This one is a headshaker. I worked for Chevron Research. Read the paper. This isn't based on anything but a desire for less waste oil. Like viscosity reduction which promoted CAFE improvement while SACRIFICTING wear protection the same is true in this case. This has been studied to death and THERE IS a correlation and underpinning causation to the crossover point and increased wear. I'm not posting that research again. 

 

On 6/19/2024 at 12:20 AM, TrailBossMike said:

Better base oils produce less contamination due to less oxidation and thermal degradation, this required less dispersants and detergents (DI additives).

 

Base oil doesn't produce contamination. Combustion byproducts do. 🤨 Really?

 

But agreed, they do tend to take longer to oxidize 'all things equal'. Problem is all things are not equal. Base oil improvement INCREASED the oxidation ONSET temperature. What did the OEM's do with that advancement? Raised bulk oil and cylinder wall temperatures. Lowered ring tension. Increased blowby. Reduced CCV vent effectiveness over the life of the vehicle, orifice instead of a check valve which is not a compensative device. Increased OCI lengths. Reduced warranty miles. Lowered wear protection callouts in oil licensing. I take it you can't read tea leaves. :crackup:Not required. Common sense is. 

 

Guy hanging by a rope as a window washer. Doc says to the guy, "If you don't lose a few pounds you will fall to your death". So, the Doc gives him a bigger rope.

 

What does this fellow do? Put on weight.

 :idiot:

 

Guy hanging by a rope as a window washer. Doc says to the guy, "If you don't lose a few pounds you will fall to your death". So, the window washer takes his advice and loses some weight.

 

Then he buys a thinner rope to hang from.

 :idiot:

 

 

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Grumpy Bear
Grumpy Bear

Give it some thought     You just saw a motor (my post above) with failed pistons/rings at nearly twice this milage on standard OEM OCI's look as good as the photo on the left whi

VicFirth
VicFirth

I'm seeing more reviews of Valvoline Restore & Protect clean extremely well.  I'm curious if the chemistry they're using makes it into other grades.  If this oil does what it is supposed to do, it

txab
txab

Ok, just double checking since you say your brain is busted sometimes. 😆  Wanted to make sure this wasn't some figment of your imagination   3 cases FTMFW!

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PunchT37 Enthusiast

PunchT37

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Yeah. I know there are inferior parts all over today. Not just oem`s. Lifters being on top of the list. But, I`m wondering if the combo of the 0w20 oil, the hotter climates, and the stop/start is causing lifter failures. As in lack of lube, like the hemi, with it`s high location and almost horizontal lifter bores. They have cam and lifter failures just as bad or worse than these GM engines. I`m also hearing of these lifter problems with the AFM/DFM disabled. So...

Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, PunchT37 said:

Yeah. I know there are inferior parts all over today. Not just oem`s. Lifters being on top of the list. But, I`m wondering if the combo of the 0w20 oil, the hotter climates, and the stop/start is causing lifter failures. As in lack of lube, like the hemi, with it`s high location and almost horizontal lifter bores. They have cam and lifter failures just as bad or worse than these GM engines. I`m also hearing of these lifter problems with the AFM/DFM disabled. So...

 

Likely all are true. Thing is, once you know you have to figure a solution. Some of us do and the OEMs are getting wise to this as well. Rumor has it that the 2025 models will no longer have a switch to defeat the auto-stop/start. They continue to elevate their encryption. They have already complicated the cooling and oiling systems or limited the available parts to cure the elevated heat. And there are fewer and fewer choices of oils on the shelves. One might think they are trying to squeeze us out of the ICE market and into electric. 🤨  

 

GM V8's as we knew them....yea.....

 

When they started using variable displacement vane pumps not only did they remove some parasitic horsepower draw, which was a good thing, but they also inadvertently (or not) LOWERED THE COOLING CAPCITY of the motor. 😱 One of oils many functions is cooling. Lower gearing and deep overdrives lowered the water pump speeds. 

 

Hot oil is thinner oil. Then we spec a *W20, a thinner oil. Increase cooling system temperature. Add preheaters, zone cooling...do everything possible to increase operating temperature, remove lubrication and thin what lubrication there is. THEN add stop start and hybrid systems to shut off the cooling and oil supply completely. As an added bonus remove the chemistry from the oil that fights all these issues which was necessary due to lower tension rings not sealing as well for as long. (They would seal fine with better bore and ring land prep $$$) Wait, doing all of this created the issues they are trying to solve and then removing the solution? They seem amazed there are lubrication related failures.  :idiot: 

 

If you know the issues, you have a solution. More cooling and more viscosity in oils that are more shear stable and more heat tolerant. The API SP ultra-thin oils they are calling out are the not cutting the mustard. Bottom rung on the ladder. Picture pig crap on the bottom of your shoe. That is how much elevation above the bottom rung you get with a Dexos1Gen2 oil. Not even a full rung.

 

IF you insist on a 0W20 then look for a Dexos1Gen3, Porsche C20 CERTIFIEND oil. The Gen3 spec has a minimum HTHS of 2.9, same as an SAE *W30. The Porsche certification gets you MUCH better deposit control in a MID SAPS oil with more effective AW packages. 

 

Or be proactive. Use not just a *W30 but one with a ACEA C3 DEXOS2 certification minimum. Raises the HTHS to 3.5 and still a MID SAPS oil with better deposit control. (Mobil 1 ESP is a DEXOS2 certified oil as is Castrol 5W30 C3)   

 

dexos®2 | GM (gmdexos.com)

 

Cut OEM OLM in HALF minimum. 

 

As long as they have an oil filter you have access to an oil cooler HINT-HINT heavy haulers.

 

IMHO of course and these are only suggestions, not Gospel.  

 

 

  • Like 3
PunchT37 Enthusiast

PunchT37

Posted
  • Author
Posted

You spend $50,000 to $100,000 on a truck just to have it belong to the manufacturer. 
 

My bad, I mean the government. 

  • Like 1
  • 2 weeks later...
VicFirth Enthusiast

VicFirth

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 6/25/2024 at 10:31 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Likely all are true. Thing is, once you know you have to figure a solution. Some of us do and the OEMs are getting wise to this as well. Rumor has it that the 2025 models will no longer have a switch to defeat the auto-stop/start. They continue to elevate their encryption. They have already complicated the cooling and oiling systems or limited the available parts to cure the elevated heat. And there are fewer and fewer choices of oils on the shelves. One might think they are trying to squeeze us out of the ICE market and into electric. 🤨  

 

GM V8's as we knew them....yea.....

 

When they started using variable displacement vane pumps not only did they remove some parasitic horsepower draw, which was a good thing, but they also inadvertently (or not) LOWERED THE COOLING CAPCITY of the motor. 😱 One of oils many functions is cooling. Lower gearing and deep overdrives lowered the water pump speeds. 

 

Hot oil is thinner oil. Then we spec a *W20, a thinner oil. Increase cooling system temperature. Add preheaters, zone cooling...do everything possible to increase operating temperature, remove lubrication and thin what lubrication there is. THEN add stop start and hybrid systems to shut off the cooling and oil supply completely. As an added bonus remove the chemistry from the oil that fights all these issues which was necessary due to lower tension rings not sealing as well for as long. (They would seal fine with better bore and ring land prep $$$) Wait, doing all of this created the issues they are trying to solve and then removing the solution? They seem amazed there are lubrication related failures.  :idiot: 

 

If you know the issues, you have a solution. More cooling and more viscosity in oils that are more shear stable and more heat tolerant. The API SP ultra-thin oils they are calling out are the not cutting the mustard. Bottom rung on the ladder. Picture pig crap on the bottom of your shoe. That is how much elevation above the bottom rung you get with a Dexos1Gen2 oil. Not even a full rung.

 

IF you insist on a 0W20 then look for a Dexos1Gen3, Porsche C20 CERTIFIEND oil. The Gen3 spec has a minimum HTHS of 2.9, same as an SAE *W30. The Porsche certification gets you MUCH better deposit control in a MID SAPS oil with more effective AW packages. 

 

Or be proactive. Use not just a *W30 but one with a ACEA C3 DEXOS2 certification minimum. Raises the HTHS to 3.5 and still a MID SAPS oil with better deposit control. (Mobil 1 ESP is a DEXOS2 certified oil as is Castrol 5W30 C3)   

 

dexos®2 | GM (gmdexos.com)

 

Cut OEM OLM in HALF minimum. 

 

As long as they have an oil filter you have access to an oil cooler HINT-HINT heavy haulers.

 

IMHO of course and these are only suggestions, not Gospel.  

 

 

 

I've been thinking about trying Mobil 1 ESP 5w30.  I am using Amsoil SS now.  Was using HPL.  

 

The only thing I don't know is whether the ESP oils have the solvency of Amsoil SS, HPL or Red Line.  I don't think they do.  I suppose for 5k mile drain intervals the ESP oils should be quite good.  

 

I'm still on the fence as to whether sulphated ash contributes to intake valve deposits.  Seems a bit more complex than just that. 

Edited by VicFirth
Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, VicFirth said:

 

I've been thinking about trying Mobil 1 ESP 5w30.  I am using Amsoil SS now.  Was using HPL.  

 

The only thing I don't know is whether the ESP oils have the solvency of Amsoil SS, HPL or Red Line.  I don't think they do.  I suppose for 5k mile drain intervals the ESP oils should be quite good.  

 

I'm still on the fence as to whether sulphated ash contributes to intake valve deposits.  Seems a bit more complex than just that. 

 

Mobil 1 ESP does not have any ester content... 

 

One of the other oil threads I posted a link about valve deposits and catch cans. Seems the deposits are even caused by the oil but by the coating on the valves. So, you can't stop it, but you can slow it way down with a higher solvency oil. Even a boasting point for HPL. 

 

Oil gets to the valves primarily from the valve guide. The better the oil control there the lower the deposit formation. In a healthy motor.

  • Thanks 1
VicFirth Enthusiast

VicFirth

Posted
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Mobil 1 ESP does not have any ester content... 

 

One of the other oil threads I posted a link about valve deposits and catch cans. Seems the deposits are even caused by the oil but by the coating on the valves. So, you can't stop it, but you can slow it way down with a higher solvency oil. Even a boasting point for HPL. 

 

Oil gets to the valves primarily from the valve guide. The better the oil control there the lower the deposit formation. In a healthy motor.

 

Thanks Grumpy.  Mobil seems to have removed the POE that was once present in the ESP line (virgin oxidation values of 35).  Now all of the Mobil 1 line has a virgin oxidation value under 10.  So they're either using AN's or something else.  It was mentioned in a post on BITOG that Mobil is now using some unconventional ingredients in their oils where they discovered something from the cosmetics industry.  They also mentioned using biobased base oils.  

 

How secret cosmetics chemical is helping Red Bull's F1 charge (motorsport.com)

 

 

"What was a long shot a few years ago - a vision of a low ash, high temperature, low friction engine oil that incorporates bio-based components became a reality this year, thanks to the efforts of our whole team, in collaboration with Honda and Red Bull."

Edited by VicFirth
Z45 Senior Enthusiast

Z45

Posted
Posted (edited)

Discussion on oil starts around 4:00

 

Edited by elcamino
Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, VicFirth said:

"What was a long shot a few years ago - a vision of a low ash, high temperature, low friction engine oil that incorporates bio-based components became a reality this year, thanks to the efforts of our whole team, in collaboration with Honda and Red Bull."

 

This is breaking news only if you are too young to remember the Isle of Man and the Norton Manx/Castrol collaboration.

  • Like 1
TheRiver Enthusiast

TheRiver

Posted
Posted
On 6/20/2024 at 9:02 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

 

This one is a headshaker. I worked for Chevron Research. Read the paper. This isn't based on anything but a desire for less waste oil. Like viscosity reduction which promoted CAFE improvement while SACRIFICTING wear protection the same is true in this case. This has been studied to death and THERE IS a correlation and underpinning causation to the crossover point and increased wear. I'm not posting that research again. 

 

 

Base oil doesn't produce contamination. Combustion byproducts do. 🤨 Really?

 

But agreed, they do tend to take longer to oxidize 'all things equal'. Problem is all things are not equal. Base oil improvement INCREASED the oxidation ONSET temperature. What did the OEM's do with that advancement? Raised bulk oil and cylinder wall temperatures. Lowered ring tension. Increased blowby. Reduced CCV vent effectiveness over the life of the vehicle, orifice instead of a check valve which is not a compensative device. Increased OCI lengths. Reduced warranty miles. Lowered wear protection callouts in oil licensing. I take it you can't read tea leaves. :crackup:Not required. Common sense is. 

 

Guy hanging by a rope as a window washer. Doc says to the guy, "If you don't lose a few pounds you will fall to your death". So, the Doc gives him a bigger rope.

 

What does this fellow do? Put on weight.

 :idiot:

 

Guy hanging by a rope as a window washer. Doc says to the guy, "If you don't lose a few pounds you will fall to your death". So, the window washer takes his advice and loses some weight.

 

Then he buys a thinner rope to hang from.

 :idiot:

 

 

 

Excellent post.

 

  • Like 1
TheRiver Enthusiast

TheRiver

Posted
Posted
On 6/25/2024 at 9:31 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Likely all are true. Thing is, once you know you have to figure a solution. Some of us do and the OEMs are getting wise to this as well. Rumor has it that the 2025 models will no longer have a switch to defeat the auto-stop/start. They continue to elevate their encryption. They have already complicated the cooling and oiling systems or limited the available parts to cure the elevated heat. And there are fewer and fewer choices of oils on the shelves. One might think they are trying to squeeze us out of the ICE market and into electric. 🤨  

 

GM V8's as we knew them....yea.....

 

When they started using variable displacement vane pumps not only did they remove some parasitic horsepower draw, which was a good thing, but they also inadvertently (or not) LOWERED THE COOLING CAPCITY of the motor. 😱 One of oils many functions is cooling. Lower gearing and deep overdrives lowered the water pump speeds. 

 

Hot oil is thinner oil. Then we spec a *W20, a thinner oil. Increase cooling system temperature. Add preheaters, zone cooling...do everything possible to increase operating temperature, remove lubrication and thin what lubrication there is. THEN add stop start and hybrid systems to shut off the cooling and oil supply completely. As an added bonus remove the chemistry from the oil that fights all these issues which was necessary due to lower tension rings not sealing as well for as long. (They would seal fine with better bore and ring land prep $$$) Wait, doing all of this created the issues they are trying to solve and then removing the solution? They seem amazed there are lubrication related failures.  :idiot: 

 

If you know the issues, you have a solution. More cooling and more viscosity in oils that are more shear stable and more heat tolerant. The API SP ultra-thin oils they are calling out are the not cutting the mustard. Bottom rung on the ladder. Picture pig crap on the bottom of your shoe. That is how much elevation above the bottom rung you get with a Dexos1Gen2 oil. Not even a full rung.

 

IF you insist on a 0W20 then look for a Dexos1Gen3, Porsche C20 CERTIFIEND oil. The Gen3 spec has a minimum HTHS of 2.9, same as an SAE *W30. The Porsche certification gets you MUCH better deposit control in a MID SAPS oil with more effective AW packages. 

 

Or be proactive. Use not just a *W30 but one with a ACEA C3 DEXOS2 certification minimum. Raises the HTHS to 3.5 and still a MID SAPS oil with better deposit control. (Mobil 1 ESP is a DEXOS2 certified oil as is Castrol 5W30 C3)   

 

dexos®2 | GM (gmdexos.com)

 

Cut OEM OLM in HALF minimum. 

 

As long as they have an oil filter you have access to an oil cooler HINT-HINT heavy haulers.

 

IMHO of course and these are only suggestions, not Gospel.  

 

 

 

And another!!!!

  • Like 1
  • 2 weeks later...
Gangly Senior Enthusiast

Gangly

Posted
Posted

I have 130K on my engine, using 0w-20 for the entire life cycle of the engine.  I have noticed that the engine oil pressure is slightly lower than what it used to be (still within comfortable levels), which I attribute to engine age.  Being in Texas, I am comfortable with using a thicker weight oil since we never get super cold weather, and I will start using 5w-30 Full Synthetic starting on my next oil change.

  • Like 1
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    • Grumpy Bear
      Some Assembly is Required

      By Grumpy Bear · Posted

      Can it still be Assembled II?   Viscosity on the decline by various means. Heat on the rise making that worse. Engine RPM in the tank. Smaller motors with more boost trying to emulate an electric motor. Full torque, zero rpm. Then we will triple the OCI. Argh.    But wait....there is more. LSPI has pushed a shift from Ca to Mg and as that cost more PLUS the run to lower sulfur compounds the TBN is moving in the wrong direction for the increased OCI's demanded.    That not being enough to placate a demand for a parameter they can't measure the other sulfur bearing compounds are also under attack. That would be zinc and phosphorus sulfonate compounds. To some degree those are being replaced with boron esters and others, i.e. titanium ect. All of which have shorter service lives. And there there is the "Secrete Sauce" marketing for AW adds that 'Can't be detected by UOA's" but trust me because I (the blenders) never ever lie.    Spoiler alert; ALL additives are sacrificial! Smaller amounts of the old blended with less robust versions of the new do not equal longer service lives. So what are the blenders recommending? Wait for it.......   MOVING THE GOAL POSTS! OMG      Let's declare the long standing TAN/TBN crossover irrelevant and tell people that soot is a great 'graphite' based lubricant which can aid tribo films. Wait, what? Let's declare that the standards used for oxidation and nitration were to conservative and can be expanded. Let's tell them that because GDI fuel dilution, although being a VISCOSITY KILLER and an acid generator is actually okay because we have better base oils that limit viscosity failure limits. (Said knowing this is measured in fractions of a centipoise and in bases not commonly used in shelf oils)   Lying from the heart is not just the new normal but we have a public, a very young public, that is so ignorant of the facts and so sure of their "RESEARCH" into AI driven models base in regurgitated  instead of scientific research based unvarnished, peer reviewed FACTS that the incoming guard is loosing their grip on reality and the OEM's are tickled pink while the blends bend the knee.    You have an ever limited set of tools to work with. And sooner or later those will be taken from you as the API and the EPA strangle the last remaining fluids from the system. What you have left is your wits. If you care to use them.    At some point in the very near future it will not longer be possible to do "What is best for the machine", and be replaced with "The best you have access too". You WILL be rewarded with half the life and twice the cost. That isn't that hard to predict.         
    • Chuck FB
      Software Update

      By Chuck FB · Posted

      I trust you saw the other comment where he knew what he was talking about !. Yes, these darned newer vehicles with all their so smart they are stupid technology, goes and drains the battery down. As you might see my other comment, I installed a Noco 5 battery tender under the hood and at this point still have the cord routed so I have to lift the hood and then plug it in but am typically parked in a garage or a shed so its not risking the engine hood in the wind. That way I am assured or hopefully so of not finding I have a battery drawn down and can't even start the truck and that also damages the battery to draw it down too far. 
    • Chuck FB
      Software Update

      By Chuck FB · Posted

      I guess no surprise my guesses were wrong !, at least now I know if I ever happen to see it grayed out in my own truck as to what is going on.    I never happened to catch my truck with it grayed out, it seemed every time I would test to see if there was an update it never found anything and yet more than once I would check to see if there was an update and there was nothing, then a day later or even that same morning I would drive to town and after more than one engine shut down in town as I did my errands it would pop up that there is an update now ready to install and the only place I have a connection to the internet is at home by wifi so its not as if it grabbed the download while driving. I don't trust these new vehicles due to all the crap they can decide to do while sitting for some days not running and run the battery down so most of the time if I know the truck will sit for a few days I plug in the battery tender I have mounted under the hood and so the only time the truck must have downloaded software was when it was sitting in the garage where the signal is awful but I have that tender plugged in and somehow it managed to download it. I honestly detest all this crap, way to easy to leave a person stranded.    Since I don't trust any of it I don't do the install of the already downloaded software until I get home and sometimes have even sat in the truck to watch what its doing as its going through the process to its conclusion as its not like it is set up that it will tell you the next time you fire up the engine that the update that was initialed actually installed or installed properly. Yes I can go into the updates and see the list. After I go through the install where I feel its safe to do so in case it breaks down as a result, I will plug in the battery tender after the fact to recharge as I don't know how much power its taking just to do the install and that can take a while for it to install. 
    • nfisherman
      Software Update

      By nfisherman · Posted

      Thanks for the reply. All settings were correct and the engine was off, as it was supposed to be. It turned out to be something simple. I took a drive for about an hour. I must have had a low battery without knowing it. The voltage gauge on the display looked ok. At the end of my drive, I shut off the engine and the update prompt came up and it updated normally. It’s ironic because one of the features of the update is a reduction of battery drain. 
    • kickass audio
      Software Update

      By kickass audio · Posted

      when it's greyed out that is it's way of telling you that it's downloading the patch in the background. Eventually it will be fully downloaded and then it will prompt you at ignition shut down to run the update. I highly recommend doing the update once you get home and can run it a few times. I've had several issues with updates not going the first time around and I had to retry the update multiple times in my driveway before it was successful.   Some updates are huge and take awhile to download. You can help it by connecting to your home WiFi and keep the truck on service mode for the ignition and keep it alive for awhile on a battery charger too. There are specs it needs to be in for updating such as a full enough battery charge, no running ignition, etc.

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