Transmission Fluid Advice

[1SLOW1500]

Yes GM in my opinion and a few engineers saw the D6 as a resolve to heat in the trans but took that at face value in the design. Meaning also in the "planed" maintenance of the trans. They said you don't need this so it is deep in trans. Same with no drain or the exhaust pipes. All little things that is different would make a world of difference.
My mechanic buddies complain to the engineers that just because it works on a computer or fits doesn't mean it is serviceable.
Body over frame builds are always this way.
Fuel lines and wires bolted to top on trans.
On Ford the trucks and to have cab removed to get to the head gaskets. Seen people scrap the trucks over this.

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[Nanotech Environmental]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

I am admittedly unfamiliar with the exact piece of equipment being used BUT unless that machine/device is FIRST removing 14 quarts and THEN adding 14 quarts back preventing comingling of fluids.....it isn't doing what you think it is. 

 

You have a sippy cup of milk in the sink. The faucet is adding water via a straw through the lid while the over flow (sippy part) is allowed to run off the excess beyond it's capacity. It is a differential dilution. I'm not doing the math for you but it would take more than a standard refining drum (42 gallons or 168 quarts) of fluid to reach 90% turn over in a three gallon system. 

 

If on the other hand it does remove the entire 14 quarts of fluid BEFORE adding back then you have an 85% exchange. 99.6% if you do it twice. 28 quarts.  

 

Three drop and fills (6 quarts each) = 86% turn over using only 18 quarts.  36 quarts will get you 98%. 

 

Simpler visual yet. Slowly pour 14 ounces of clean water into one 16 ounce tumbler full of milk while stirring and observe. Then put 14 ounces of water into a 16 ounce tumbler containing 2 ounces of milk and observe. Compare the two for opacity. 

It doesn't work that way when swapping out trans oil. I know this because I have done it. This method uses the trans pump to do the swap and the lines as the carrier. Pull new oil in one line, push old oil out the other. Run it til new oil comes out the outlet. Can also be done by cutting into a line and attaching 2 rubber hoses, one for new, one for old. In a 14 qt system it typically  uses about 15 to 17 qts to fully remove the old(to over 95%, including coolers etc.)).  There isn't much mixing of old and new fluid. 
It's really just a complex long loop with a bulge or two in it (Pan and TC). The constant push/pull prevents a lot of comingling.

Trans filters aren't crazy efficient. They catch most of the stray manufacturing and assembly junk in the first 100 miles when the vehicle is new. They really don't do a whole lot after that, unless something is self destructing in the trans. It's moot then, because the tranny is getting rebuilt anyways. Transmissions are close to a closed system, so there's usually not a lot to contaminate the fluid.
Heat and stress kills the fluid, which then kills the trans, which causes heat and stress on the fluid, which kills the trans.........on and on.
 

[diyer2]

Jiffy Lube does a trans fluid exchange service.

They used to tie into the trans lines.

Now they do it via the trans dip stick tube.

Two lines. One removes. One adds fluid.

[mookdoc6]

51 minutes ago, Nanotech Environmental said:

It doesn't work that way when swapping out trans oil. I know this because I have done it. This method uses the trans pump to do the swap and the lines as the carrier. Pull new oil in one line, push old oil out the other. Run it til new oil comes out the outlet. Can also be done by cutting into a line and attaching 2 rubber hoses, one for new, one for old. In a 14 qt system it typically  uses about 15 to 17 qts to fully remove the old(to over 95%, including coolers etc.)).  There isn't much mixing of old and new fluid. 
It's really just a complex long loop with a bulge or two in it (Pan and TC). The constant push/pull prevents a lot of comingling.

Trans filters aren't crazy efficient. They catch most of the stray manufacturing and assembly junk in the first 100 miles when the vehicle is new. They really don't do a whole lot after that, unless something is self destructing in the trans. It's moot then, because the tranny is getting rebuilt anyways. Transmissions are close to a closed system, so there's usually not a lot to contaminate the fluid.
Heat and stress kills the fluid, which then kills the trans, which causes heat and stress on the fluid, which kills the trans.........on and on.
 

Yes, I had my 8L90 serviced in this manner and I believe it's the most practical/safest way to replace fluid.  I did drop the pan and add 5qts of fluid very early on just to replace filter and inspect.  I had WAY more material on engine oil break in than the trans showed.  My next fluid change will be done in the above manner.

[Grumpy Bear]

1 hour ago, Nanotech Environmental said:

A.) It's really just a complex long loop with a bulge or two in it (Pan and TC). The constant push/pull prevents a lot of comingling.

B.)Transmissions are close to a closed system, so there's usually not a lot to contaminate the fluid.

 

C.) Heat and stress kills the fluid, which then kills the trans, which causes heat and stress on the fluid, which kills the trans.........on and on.
 

A.) It doesn't. Fluid will comingle in a straight pipe. (Soda Straw) It's why we use PIGS (physical separation) in pipe lines to change from one fluid to another (refining). Even small lines. Try the glass experiment.  That said, if you don't want to it's not an argument worth having. I'm good. 

 

B.) How is the moisture (contamination) that is killing converter clutches getting in? Are we talking fractional amounts like PPM or cups full? I like to learn new things. 

 

C.) Yep.....I can convince some to use a cooler and lower thermostat setting but I've never been able to convince anyone that their right foot is directly connected to their wallet. 

 

 

 

[mookdoc6]

Apparently, the fluid was hygroscopic?  As to how much?  No clue...... 

[1SLOW1500]

I don't understand the moisture claim at all. I dan believe that condensation could happen as I see this in my catch can. But more then that I don't get.
So we can turn up the pressure or even the ramp pressure.

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[diyer2]

2 hours ago, Nanotech Environmental said:

Trans filters aren't crazy efficient. They catch most of the stray manufacturing and assembly junk in the first 100 miles when the vehicle is new. They really don't do a whole lot after that, unless something is self destructing in the trans. It's moot then, because the tranny is getting rebuilt anyways. Transmissions are close to a closed system, so there's usually not a lot to contaminate the fluid.
Heat and stress kills the fluid, which then kills the trans, which causes heat and stress on the fluid, which kills the trans.........on and on.

Agree 

I just suck out fluid through the dip stick tube and replace after doing a pan drop and filter.

[mookdoc6]

48 minutes ago, 1SLOW1500 said:

I don't understand the moisture claim at all. I dan believe that condensation could happen as I see this in my catch can. But more then that I don't get.
So we can turn up the pressure or even the ramp pressure.

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My guess would be the Hot/Cold cycles of the components slowly leaches moisture into system GM engineers then find out the fluid is actively helping the process by attraction.  Obviously, everything starts to change to the fluid characteristics when this happens....just guessing? 

[1SLOW1500]

I have had more then a few arguements on good trans temp. Had a few say 210-240. And their supporting fact was trans fluid D6 is built for that.
Well trans isn't and in fact GM add a hot trans pattern for when temp is 212*. Basically a limp mode for the trans. The fluid will go to that but it breaks down fast and then can't do it's job. Over 190* normal operating temp it states change fluid every 30-40k. Again compare that to what people are posting 50-60k or over 100k.
But I believe the engineers in all there infinite wisdom saw that 240* rating and got carried away.

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[Grumpy Bear]

1 hour ago, mookdoc6 said:

Apparently, the fluid was hygroscopic?  As to how much?  No clue...... 

 The factory fill then has some level of ester in it. Straight up Dino Juice can't hydrolyze. Mineral oil is hydrophobic. That the case 2 to 3% by volume of ester per year; uncatalyzed. Without knowing the percentage of ester the bulk fraction is unknowable. The result is a weak carboxylic acid and methanol. Glaze...

 

6 minutes ago, 1SLOW1500 said:

I have had more then a few arguments on good trans temp. Had a few say 210-240. And their supporting fact was trans fluid D6 is built for that.

Well trans isn't and in fact GM add a hot trans pattern for when temp is 212*. Basically a limp mode for the trans. The fluid will go to that but it breaks down fast and then can't do it's job. Over 190* normal operating temp it states change fluid every 30-40k. Again compare that to what people are posting 50-60k or over 100k.
But I believe the engineers in all there infinite wisdom saw that 240* rating and got carried away.

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Ding ding ding...we have a winner-winner chicken dinner. 

[Nanotech Environmental]

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

A.) It doesn't. Fluid will comingle in a straight pipe. (Soda Straw) It's why we use PIGS (physical separation) in pipe lines to change from one fluid to another (refining). Even small lines. Try the glass experiment.  That said, if you don't want to it's not an argument worth having. I'm good. 

 

B.) How is the moisture (contamination) that is killing converter clutches getting in? Are we talking fractional amounts like PPM or cups full? I like to learn new things. 

 

 

 

 

 

A- Umm, yes it does. At least enough to fully clear the old fluid out and get new in. There is some comingling, but usually only about 1-3 quarts worth. When this method is used, the point at which the old is flushed out is very clear. It happens quickly, in just a few seconds. Then, only new fluid. Done.

Look, I've done this & you haven't. So... sorry, you're really not in a position to debate this issue. 
Comparing this to a pipeline or your glass experiment is like comparing apples to dumptrucks. Yes, it is.(I know you're going to try and dispute that, but I'll stop you before you start) 

B. Moisture often has many ways of getting into places it shouldn't. However, I've never had an issue with it in any of my transmissions, nor has anyone that I know of. I don't recall seeing any posts on here about it either...... Maybe it isn't actually an issue?

[Grumpy Bear]

5 hours ago, Nanotech Environmental said:

Look, I've done this & you haven't. So... sorry, you're really not in a position to debate this issue. 

Didn't I say, "..... it's not an argument worth having. " And now you want to make what was a conversation personnel? Okay. Let's run this down the rabbit hole as your insisting, eh?

 

Your statement above says that only those with experience can know the outcome of a thing with certainty. Thus as I have none (experience) with this device/procedure I lack any ability that would lead to an accurate conclusion. Thus I need to bugger off. 

 

How much actual experience did the NASA Apollo 11 engineers have at going to the moon? NONE! By your logic Neil Armstrong could not reach the moon. It would also imply if Neil and Buzz actually had,  that upon their arrival home they had acquired enough experience to send men to the moon themselves no longer in need of those pesky inexperienced engineers. 

 

In what world does seeing a 'change' in the fluids appearance equal a known percentage of that exchange? 

 

Quote:  In a 14 qt system it typically  uses about 15 to 17 qts to fully remove the old (to over 95%, including coolers etc.)).

 

Which is it?

 

Then there is this: Quote: There is some comingling, but usually only about 1-3 quarts worth.

 

That's 79 to 93%. Tell ya what this dummy knows. Your crawfishing and guessing. In just a few sentences and two post you've waffled from 100% (fully remove) to as little as 79%. (3 in 14). 

 

Quote: Pull new oil in one line, push old oil out the other. (cooler lines) 

 

You said this system used the transmissions own pump to do the exchange.  Well you can certainly push the old out but sucking the new in would be a trick. The pump suction is internal and the pan. Not the OTHER line. You know, the passage the filter is attached to. Wait, were you about to say there is an external tap into the suction line? Great then it pulls from both....Now were not comingled were are flat out mixing. 

 

It also says that this transfer is a differential dilution equation. You could calculate it or you could measure it but what you can't do is eyeball it. You can't guess a fact. Neil would have landed on Pluto. 

 

Try a fluid neutral titratable marker and measure it then tell me to bugger off IF I'm wrong. But not on the effluent sample. On a sample taken from the pan a thousand miles after the flush. That should not require an explanation. 

 

As it turns out I'm in a very good position for such a debate. I just didn't want to. 

 

 

 

 

[kickass audio]

Does anyone know the way the fluid flows through the rad? Does it enter the rad on the driver or passenger side? I had my truck running last night and the trans temp only got up to 150 and the lines on the driver side felt warm and the passenger side was cool so I assume it's coming in through the radiator from the drivers side then going up to the aux cooler and exiting the radiator on the passenger side. 

[1SLOW1500]

Didn't I say, "..... it's not an argument worth having. " And now you want to make what was a conversation personnel? Okay. Let's run this down the rabbit hole as your insisting, eh?
 
Your statement above says that only those with experience can know the outcome of a thing with certainty. Thus as I have none (experience) with this device/procedure I lack any ability that would lead to an accurate conclusion. Thus I need to bugger off. 
 
How much actual experience did the NASA Apollo 11 engineers have at going to the moon? NONE! By your logic Neil Armstrong could not reach the moon. It would also imply if Neil and Buzz actually had,  that upon their arrival home they had acquired enough experience to send men to the moon themselves no longer in need of those pesky inexperienced engineers. 
 
In what world does seeing a 'change' in the fluids appearance equal a known percentage of that exchange? 
 
Quote:  In a 14 qt system it typically  uses about 15 to 17 qts to fully remove the old (to over 95%, including coolers etc.)).
 
Which is it?
 
Then there is this: Quote: There is some comingling, but usually only about 1-3 quarts worth.
 
That's 79 to 93%. Tell ya what this dummy knows. Your crawfishing and guessing. In just a few sentences and two post you've waffled from 100% (fully remove) to as little as 79%. (3 in 14). 
 
Quote: Pull new oil in one line, push old oil out the other. (cooler lines) 
 
You said this system used the transmissions own pump to do the exchange.  Well you can certainly push the old out but sucking the new in would be a trick. The pump suction is internal and the pan. Not the OTHER line. You know, the passage the filter is attached to. Wait, were you about to say there is an external tap into the suction line? Great then it pulls from both....Now were not comingled were are flat out mixing. 
 
It also says that this transfer is a differential dilution equation. You could calculate it or you could measure it but what you can't do is eyeball it. You can't guess a fact. Neil would have landed on Pluto. 
 
Try a fluid neutral titratable marker and measure it then tell me to bugger off IF I'm wrong. But not on the effluent sample. On a sample taken from the pan a thousand miles after the flush. That should not require an explanation. 
 
As it turns out I'm in a very good position for such a debate. I just didn't want to. 
 
 
 
 

This is what I thought as well GB. When I read the posted stats on percentage "replaced". I just don't have the grammar and vocabulary you do. So I let it go and just said pan drop first 30-40k. And smart to get a drain plug for future service.
I personally don't care for that machine flush.

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