RAM sells more than Silverado for 2nd quarter

rkj__ · July 3, 2019

14 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

Well, GM has pretty much said they are happy to sell less, but make more on each so this is not surprising nor is it necessarily a problem. Doesn’t really make any difference to me personally.

^^^This.

KARNUT · July 3, 2019

This mornings USA Today has Ram at number 1 of all vehicles in the first six months of this year.

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amxguy1970 · July 3, 2019

15 hours ago, mawint said:

I've said this before, in order for GM to sell more vehicles they need to have a vehicle that is competitive with features people want. I don't feel that the new trucks do that. GM in a video even mentioned basically phoning it in on the interior (video should start 15:07 where the engineer mentions this).

The fact that the Ram is all new in every aspect is more appealing to a lot of buyers than what GM offers currently. Honestly, I couldn't even tell you what they updated besides styling and adding cameras, oh and rear a/c vents. Engines all have new technology but no noticeable improvements in fuel economy or power, tow capacity is relatively the same as any other brand. What exactly are you getting by buying GM?

I say this as a person who has loved the GM brand for quite a long time but I'm not brand loyal. I just feel like with this round they went, "Well, it's good enough" and I think it shows.

10 hours ago, mawint said:

Fair enough, either brand didn't do much to increase performance or torque from their engines.

IMO the exterior of the new Silverado/Sierra twins is polarizing for most and I'm in the camp of I just don't like it. I've viewed it in person, sat in them, driven them but there is nothing about the truck that says, "I have to have it." With this generation I really wished they would have really tried to make something really cool, phoning it in with the interior because it was "Good Enough" just doesn't sit well with me. Not to mention, I never really liked that interior in the 2014-2018 trucks either. I don't know if they need a new test group to give actual feedback or maybe GM got feedback and just decided not to implement, who knows.

I figured GM would have learned the last time they let a model run too long but I guess not, maybe we'll see a mid-cycle refresh for the interior like Ram did around 2014.

With the cost of them, most of the time when I look at any of them and price them out, I nope out pretty quickly anyways.

I don't think the NHTSA does reliability ratings, safety ratings I do know they do.

You keep saying phoning it in and good enough and that is incorrect, did you even listen to the engineer in the video? That is not at all what they did. When you have overwhelming feed back from actual truck buyers that love how it works, then you tweak it to improve it. You know how many people they talk to and question about this stuff on top of the 3rd party companies that do the same inquiries? They don't have to do a revolution with every design cycle, many of times an evolution is better. Take a look at Porsche, every new model is an evolution because of their feedback from buyers and owners, ditto here. I thought my current gen K2 interior was great, I am very glad they did an evolution as they improved in spots that need some TLC for the new gen such as the touch areas and some button layouts. Chances are if they put in a car like interior like Ram some none truck guys would rave about it and how pretty it is but those that use it every day will be sitting there going WTF mate... Phoning it in is taking a car interior that won't stand up to abuse and last and putting that in your truck to steal some car/cuv buyer sales and wrapping it up with a big discount, you already see many complaints that question the longevity of the Ram interior. Those that complain about the GM truck interiors fall in the I don't use a truck camp but have an image to uphold. Besides, utilizing an evolutionary design freed up resources, time and money to improve in actual truck areas like the bed, frame, engines and new tech and safety features, you know, areas that a truck specializes in and is purchased for...

Tyler

MaverickZ71 · July 3, 2019

You can't use JD Power to prove quality on anything. Basically, JD is the equivalent of the old Italian mafia. If you pay, you get protection. If you don't pay, they cause you problems. It's all just a big fake cheerleading con job. JD hits all of the manufacturers up for sponsorship money. The more they pay, the better their rankings. After the bankruptcy, GM pumped a bunch of $ to JD Power and their rankings miraculously vaulted up the list. Funny how that works. Just remember, when it comes to marketing, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Buyer beware.

jlong1984 · July 3, 2019

2 hours ago, KARNUT said:

This mornings USA Today has Ram at number 1 of all vehicles in the first six months of this year.

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I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see them unseat Ford at number one for a quarter or two, at least until the new F-150 comes in a year or two.

I like my Sierra, I really don't care if Ram outsells GM, it means nothing to me. GM stock is doing well, so obviously the shareholders don't seem to mind either. Ram is buying market share with deep discounts, it will be interesting to see how long they can keep that up before we see them start to sink back down. Maybe they can keep the $15,000 off deals going forever, but I doubt it.

mawint · July 3, 2019

1 hour ago, amxguy1970 said:

You keep saying phoning it in and good enough and that is incorrect, did you even listen to the engineer in the video? That is not at all what they did. When you have overwhelming feed back from actual truck buyers that love how it works, then you tweak it to improve it. You know how many people they talk to and question about this stuff on top of the 3rd party companies that do the same inquiries? They don't have to do a revolution with every design cycle, many of times an evolution is better. Take a look at Porsche, every new model is an evolution because of their feedback from buyers and owners, ditto here. I thought my current gen K2 interior was great, I am very glad they did an evolution as they improved in spots that need some TLC for the new gen such as the touch areas and some button layouts. Chances are if they put in a car like interior like Ram some none truck guys would rave about it and how pretty it is but those that use it every day will be sitting there going WTF mate... Phoning it in is taking a car interior that won't stand up to abuse and last and putting that in your truck to steal some car/cuv buyer sales and wrapping it up with a big discount, you already see many complaints that question the longevity of the Ram interior. Those that complain about the GM truck interiors fall in the I don't use a truck camp but have an image to uphold. Besides, utilizing an evolutionary design freed up resources, time and money to improve in actual truck areas like the bed, frame, engines and new tech and safety features, you know, areas that a truck specializes in and is purchased for...

Tyler

Overwhelming feedback from who? I would like to meet these people. Are these the same people that gave feedback that the HD design was a good idea?

Who are these "real" truck buyers you're referring to? Do they exclusively buy GM? Following this logic, the "real" truck people are diminishing (based on GM sales) and catering design and features to that group of people means diminished sales. I'm pretty sure GM wouldn't just cater to one group of buyers, that would be dumb. Just as other manufactures aren't catering to one buyer type.

They freed up money for profits is what they did since they didn't have to re-tool for the interior. I guess we'll see if that comes back to bite them but it may already have.

For those that think I'm defending the Ram because it has a better interior, I'm not. What I'm trying to get across is that the price for the truck in it's current state, does not match the increase in price to accommodate it. People around here keep saying well GM doesn't care about losing sales as long as they are gaining profit but if sales continue to go down, profit diminishes as well. They've increased profit to make up for the missing sales at the moment but how long will that last? Let's not forget, even though other manufactures may be discounting their vehicles, they are still making money through financing and dealer services. Just because the sale is done with the vehicle, doesn't mean that the manufacture doesn't make any money.

Honestly though, looking at the attached image you can tell me that the steering wheel in that interior is not "car like"? This is a direct comparison between 2018 and 2019 and neither one of them would convince me that it's a truck interior if I didn't know where it came from. What does a "truck" interior look like? I don't know but does it need to be a "truck" looking interior? Some would argue no.

Again, I never liked the 2014-2018 interior either. My biggest gripes with it was that the 4wd switches next to the drivers door appear to be an after thought, the steering wheel is off center, the center console looks like it was made to be optioned in, the glove boxes just look ugly and so much usable space around the screen is taken up by cheap looking plastic. The 2019 interior does fix some of the issues I had with the previous gen, at least it doesn't look as much like someone just threw buttons at a blank space.

Nobody is saying that it needs to be completely all new, when has anyone said that? But when you get mixed reviews on the previous gen interior, you might want to go a little bigger.

Let's not forget when the exterior styling was unveiled, users around this forum were mixed on it as well. (Link)

Buy what you like, I honestly don't care, it's your money. You do you. Personally though, GM didn't come out strong on this one.

Edited July 3, 2019 by mawint

KARNUT · July 3, 2019

I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see them unseat Ford at number one for a quarter or two, at least until the new F-150 comes in a year or two.

I like my Sierra, I really don't care if Ram outsells GM, it means nothing to me. GM stock is doing well, so obviously the shareholders don't seem to mind either. Ram is buying market share with deep discounts, it will be interesting to see how long they can keep that up before we see them start to sink back down. Maybe they can keep the $15,000 off deals going forever, but I doubt it.

When I bought new trucks I would go with the one with the best discounts. My 1/2 tons since 01. 01,04,06, GM, 08 Ram. Then bought a few sports cars and used trucks. Then a 14 GMC. All based on price. In my area certain times a year they all give discounts of 10-15K. I know more than a few people who bought Rams because of discounts. Then bought another one later because they like them. If I was in the market I would buy the best deal, not the name.

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Wiggums · July 3, 2019

14 hours ago, BlackLS said:

I considered Ram before I bought my Trail Boss but after reading all of the complaints on the Ram forums about A/C problems, truck won't start, squeaky brakes, leaking sunroofs, etc I decided to stay away. I think Fiats reliability issues may be rubbing off on Ram, take a look at the chart below. Ram and Fiat are at the bottom of the list.

F150 was not an option for me because I just don't like the styling.

I like the simplicity of the Chevy interior, the Ram interior is too busy and that 12" screen would drive me nuts.

On this one, Chevrolet includes the reliable sedans, Impala, Cruze, Volt, Bolt, etc. GMC doesn't sell sedans, it's is mostly SUV and pick-up trucks. 161 is closer to Ram's 171 than Chevrolet's 115.

Obviously, Ram is mostly trucks in this one so we know how bad it is. I haven't turned in my truck for problems so it more likely won't be included even though it's got electronic gremlins.

Wiggums · July 3, 2019

56 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

When I bought new trucks I would go with the one with the best discounts. My 1/2 tons since 01. 01,04,06, GM, 08 Ram. Then bought a few sports cars and used trucks. Then a 14 GMC. All based on price. In my area certain times a year they all give discounts of 10-15K. I know more than a few people who bought Rams because of discounts. Then bought another one later because they like them. If I was in the market I would buy the best deal, not the name.

Same here, it was an all-new at $10k off which was a no-brainer for me. All-new means better resale value down the road too.

f8l vnm · July 3, 2019

Are we really surprised here ? Capability wise they ( all trucks) are all within 95% of each other .

What is left ?

Interior , ride and exterior.

Now looks is subjective but the GM twins are still very polarizing for some, and interior looks absolutely terrible. ( and this coming from someone who drives a 19 Denali) and the ride is still suspect . I know my 16 Denali rode a little better then my 19 , who knows why . But we all know the RAM comes with coils which make it feel like a big sedan, and RAM's interior speaks for itself.

Trucks have become family cars and lets face it , the RAM is much more pleasant to be in the , then the GM twins.

I know some are all over reliability but IMO they all have issues. My 14 was bough back and 16 had issues as well. My 19 so far has electrical issues and also some ( thank god) small amount of water that got in. Point is no one is perfect , especially when your mass producing something.

Customers have spoken and the RAM is dominating the Silverado in Sales . Heck by end of year RAM could outsell both GM twins. Its not a coincidence and rather easy to see why. BTW Ford just released their sales numbers and as always they dominate truck sales.

Notice how Ford and RAM are up and GM twins are down ? This is a bad sign for a new design.

For the hardcore GM homers, you can hate, you can say its a POS, you can say what you want but numbers are numbers. ( again this from a loyal GM guy)

Full-size truck sales breakdown: Year-over-Year (YoY)

Model	2019 YTD	2018 YTD	YoY%
Ford F-Series	448,398	451,138	-0.6%
Ram Trucks	299,480	233,539	+28%
GM trucks (Chevy + GMC)*	354,180	391,948
Chevy Silverado*	256,777	291,074	-11.8%
GMC Sierra*	97,403	100,874	-3.4%

SILVER SLED · July 3, 2019

A lot of these Ram sales may be leases. So why not lease a Ram cheap. Most vehicles are good for 2 or 3 years so...

Edited July 3, 2019 by SILVER SLED

Mandalorian · July 3, 2019

I was playing around with the Ram configurator online and I think Rams have a better trim/option method than GM. They're a lot more lax with things like the axle ratios and bench/bucket seats.

But the main thing here is Ram is absolutely killing it in terms of tech/features. Most buyers are not the typical truck forum "Old man yells at cloud" types who feel violated if a truck doesn't have a crank-start. 2019 GM trucks don't even have adaptive cruise control as an OPTION, something that is STANDARD on a freaking sub-$20k Toyota Corolla, 1/3rd the cost of many of these trucks.

Plus the interiors in general aren't bad, but are lacking. Old GM had a deserved reputation for putting some garbage interiors out there (Pontiac anyone?), but they worked long and hard to change that. Now, they seem to be stagnating, while the competition is only improving. I feel like the materials are pretty good overall, but the design doesn't do them justice, especially since they insist on making EVERYTHING monochromatic black which just looks cheap compared to the contrasting colors.

econometrics · July 3, 2019

6 hours ago, Street Queen said:

Do the numbers include all car types in the mix? Maybe I am biased but I would still buy a T1 over D or F if I had to do it over again!

The first new GM models to launch were the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra crew cabs in late summer 2018. Sales of each were up more than 12 percent in the second quarter versus a year ago.

Customer demand for Chevrolet’s new Trail Boss models – the first full-size pickups equipped with a 2-inch factory-installed lifted suspension – have far exceeded expectations, so GM will double production. In addition, the 2020 Chevrolet Silverado1500 will offer Trail Boss models with a 420 horsepower, 6.2L V8 L87 engine.

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/07/gm-sales-figures-numbers-results-united-states-second-quarter-q2/

I do think GM has a surprise winner with the TB, and especially the AT4. I would say that at least 50-75% of the T1s I am seeing around DFW are TBs or AT4s. That's very surprising, as the K2 TX Edition (All-Star edition) has LONG been the dominant trim level on the roads in TX.

Adding the 6.2L to the TB in 2020 will continue to drive sales for that trim. GM hit the market where there was a big hole on this one - a truck that comes from the factory with a lift and some "gentle" off road improvements. That's what most buyers want... the ABILITY to go off-road if / when they want to, even though most never will.

The Raptor is a step beyond what most truck buyers want. This is why you see Ford jumping in on the 2500 level with the new Tremor trim.

OnTheReel · July 3, 2019

I will grant adaptive cruise as a missing piece, but that’s coming next year. Otherwise I don’t really see it as a lack of tech or features issue. As of right now, GM has the best trailering technology, the cameras are the best quality, GM is the only one with HUD, only one with camera mirror, the infotainment seems the fastest and easier to operate than the others, etc.

Granted, you do have to spend a lot to get all of these things, and nobody could argue that the Ram probably has better bang for the buck as far as goodies. Hell, I know I could have bought a Ram Limited with every single option for much less than my loaded LTZ.

But as I said yesterday, they are fine selling less and making more on each, even if this wasn’t their intention at first. Wrong or right, they seem to have their hands tied to this strategy for the time being due to supplier issues. Dealers generally are very light on inventory, especially in the higher and/ or more desirable trims. Constraints have been constant. They simply can’t afford to discount a ton and burn through trucks, when there’s nothing to replace them with.

OnTheReel · July 3, 2019

5 minutes ago, econometrics said:

I do think GM has a surprise winner with the TB, and especially the AT4.

Adding the 6.2L to the TB in 2020 will continue to drive sales for that trim. GM hit the market where there was a big hole on this one - a truck that comes from the factory with a lift and some "gentle" off road improvements. That's what most buyers want... the ABILITY to go off-road if / when they want to, even though most never will.

Yup, I’m betting GM will make up some ground in Q4. They’ll have their new HDs hitting the lots, expanded 6.2 and finally diesel availability, better supply of Trail Boss models (and all models in general). Top that with the fact that the leftover 19s will be discounted stronger, and should make a good value statement given they identical in appearance to the 2020s.