Diesel Oil Concerns

[btj_z71]

Thought oil pressure was low so when I got home I checked the level, level was fine.  However, the oil was black. 

 

Dealer did the first oil change maybe 1500 miles ago (only 8900mi on it currently) and the oil is black already.  Is that normal? 

 

I understand that the black color indicates the presence of carbon and is normal, and does not mean it needs to be changed simply based on color.  It didn't smell burnt or "old" either.

 

I really do not run this truck that hard and especially not so during the last 1500 miles.

 

I'm just hoping someone can educate me on the world of diesel engine oil and differences vs gas engine oil.

 

I would expect the oil not to be thorougly black after such a recent oil change.

[mjonesjr84]

A diesel is different than an engine that burns gas. The oil will be black before you leave the dealer after the oil change. A diesel engine is harder on the oil. The black oil means it is doing its job.

 

You want to see black oil almost instantly? Get your hands on a 7.3 Powerstroke with a fresh oil change.

[Grover67]

Ya diesel oil gets black fairly quick normal. Do good maintenance and use quality products and thats all you can do, run it.

 

-Grover67

[Grumpy Bear]

The black is soot is from the fuel combustion process. Diesel oils have more detergent and more dispersant than gas oils to deal with that.

 

This soot is really REALLY small to start. Under a micron. But will amalgamate over time. A pretty good tool is the AMSOIL bypass filter system that uses filters fine enough to be about 98.7% efficient at 2 micron. Keeping solids in suspension under 5 micron is sort of a big deal. That system will accomplish that goal. 

 

That said GDI gas motors produce allot of soot as well. My gas GDI will be pretty dark by 2K.  

 

[Z45]

It’s common to assume that black motor oil has worn out or become too saturated with contaminants to protect your engine and requires changing. Not necessarily. Discoloration is a natural byproduct of heat and soot particles, which are too small to wear out your engine. Since soot particles are less than one micron in size, they typically don’t cause engine wear. For comparison, a human hair is roughly 70 microns in diameter.

If soot particles agglomerate into larger wear-causing contaminants, the oil filter will catch them. Sometimes people who use bypass filtration systems, which can filter contaminants down to two microns, express surprise that the motor oil is still black. Soot, however, can still elude filtration down to two microns. Any finer filtration and the filter could catch dissolved additives in the motor oil.

[newdude]

Completely normal.  

[Black02Silverado]

Normal.

 

Just don't get any of that black oil on clothing.  It is nearly impossible to get out. 

[btj_z71]

Thanks yall.  I remember the oil in my gas engines not turning black this quickly so I was just curious.  Appreciate the feedback!

 

The first oil change was free.  Next oil change I will do myself and get Amsoil in there.  Amsoil is all I ever used on my 2014 5.3L.  

[Grumpy Bear]

3 hours ago, elcamino said:

It’s common to assume that black motor oil has worn out or become too saturated with contaminants to protect your engine and requires changing. Not necessarily. Discoloration is a natural byproduct of heat and soot particles, which are too small to wear out your engine. Since soot particles are less than one micron in size, they typically don’t cause engine wear. For comparison, a human hair is roughly 70 microns in diameter.

 

If soot particles agglomerate into larger wear-causing contaminants, the oil filter will catch them. Sometimes people who use bypass filtration systems, which can filter contaminants down to two microns, express surprise that the motor oil is still black. Soot, however, can still elude filtration down to two microns. Any finer filtration and the filter could catch dissolved additives in the motor oil.

 

 

Pretty spot on. Point of fact however is that most commercial filters are very poor at removing the 5 to 8 micron sizes that according to GM's own studies create the greatest damage. Some of the most popular, like Mobil 1 at 98% at 30 micron. It's how they get such long change intervals from those filters. K&N is about 40 Micron.

 

http://www.extendoil.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/2018-06-07_2019.png

The best off the shelf filter I know of has a 98% at 10 micron. That's raw data not what's on the box.

 

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30697/choose-oil-filter 

 

[newdude]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Pretty spot on. Point of fact however is that most commercial filters are very poor at removing the 5 to 8 micron sizes that according to GM's own studies create the greatest damage. Some of the most popular, like Mobil 1 at 98% at 30 micron. It's how they get such long change intervals from those filters. K&N is about 40 Micron.

 

http://www.extendoil.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/2018-06-07_2019.png

The best off the shelf filter I know of has a 98% at 10 micron. That's raw data not what's on the box.

 

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30697/choose-oil-filter 

 

 

 

Not to stray, but for example ACDelco filters both the Duraguard and Ultraguard are good for 98% at 30 microns (duraguard) and 98% at 25-30 microns (ultraguard).  Yet GM's own studies point to more is better.  So why would GM use such filters?  I can think of only two reasons, cost and planned obsolescence (we want to sell you a new car in 3-5 years).  The way some of these VVT solenoids look after a while seems to correlate to this I'm just kind of putting together.  The filters do their job, but not at the degree they should to really protect oil vital componentry.  

[Black02Silverado]

2 hours ago, newdude said:

 

 

Not to stray, but for example ACDelco filters both the Duraguard and Ultraguard are good for 98% at 30 microns (duraguard) and 98% at 25-30 microns (ultraguard).  Yet GM's own studies point to more is better.  So why would GM use such filters?  I can think of only two reasons, cost and planned obsolescence (we want to sell you a new car in 3-5 years).  The way some of these VVT solenoids look after a while seems to correlate to this I'm just kind of putting together.  The filters do their job, but not at the degree they should to really protect oil vital componentry.  

To me, the more oil is expected to act like a hydraulic fluid in more complicated engine designs the more important it is to keep it clean.

[Grumpy Bear]

3 hours ago, newdude said:

 The way some of these VVT solenoids look after a while seems to correlate to this I'm just kind of putting together.  The filters do their job, but not at the degree they should to really protect oil vital componentry.  

 

Bingo! 

 

They look that way from pushing oils past there ability.

To long, to hot, to hard.

 

There is allot of Kool-Aid drinking by Joe Average

 

Almost forgot a thought from an earlier post. Additives in SOLUTION can not be filters out. Additives in SUSPENSION can be and those are well under 2 micron according to Phillips Petroleum. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

4 hours ago, newdude said:

Yet GM's own studies point to more is better.  So why would GM use such filters?  I can think of only two reasons, cost and planned obsolescence (we want to sell you a new car in 3-5 years). 

 

I took the low road with the Terrain in fluid, QSUD 5W30 and filter, WIX which filters about the same as the AC Delco. I underestimated the service the wife would put it through badly. VVT solenoids toasted early (varnish) then the rings varnished and collapsed. All before 85K miles. We pulled the cover when we did the Delco Top End soak and YUK!! Looked like a Pennzoil motor from the 60's. Manual cleaning of what we could. Dip it out with ice cream scoops. 

 

I routinely changed that things oil at 5K or 33% of the OLM remaining and it still was not enough. Recovered enough that GM wouldn't do a thing. From a quart in 600 miles to a quart in over 5K. No Joy. 

 

I'm sure they thought I would toss another 35K down a rat hole and they were mistaken. 

[Z45]

As was splained to me by a expert.

Quote

Oil Filter Efficency

99 % efficient at 20 microns is not stating that the filter is more efficient than 96.6% at 15 microns, it all has to do with micron size being tested. The test is saying what % efficiency at what micron size being tested. A filter media is going to be more efficient at a larger micron than a smaller micron because larger dirt particles will filter out better than smaller dirt particles.

The smaller the micron size the less efficient the filter, or the larger the micron size the more efficient. It is as simple as that.

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by elcamino

[Grumpy Bear]

 

1 hour ago, elcamino said:

As was splained to me by a expert.

 

 

 

This is the actual ISO 4548-12 results on the Purolator PL series filters I use.

From Purolator for the asking. 

That red dot is the Beta 75 point used in the GM test.

SAE Tech Paper Series #881825

This filter is 98.67% (Beta 75) at 11 micron.

It's 90% at 6.69 micron! 

However it is advertised as 99% at 20 micron.

 

This would double motor life compared to the WIX/NAPA filter and BTW...WIX/NAPA is made by?

Mann + Hummel

AKA Purolator

 

Royal Purple filter ISO 4548-12 is almost identical to this chart.

Royal Purple makes their own filters.

 

Fram Ultra Guard is right there bought by TRICO Group in 2019

Filters made in house.

 

ISO 4548-12 Test method explained here:

https://www.iso.org/standard/62763.html

 

You want to double motor life again you will need 2 micron filtration that is 98.67% efficient. Hence the reference to the AMSOIL BP filter system. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Grumpy Bear